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Thread: Yikes,I am heading to the next level

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by djr33 View Post
    Not even some people?
    Of course some people will, but a very small amount.
    Sure. Sounds fine to me-- and when people think about what to do, is one of the first things that comes to mind doing something on the computer? And for some of them that wouldn't translate to a potential career or potential hobby?
    Once again, yes, some people will, but my point is that the fact that more people use computers doesn't mean that more people will become programmers
    *shrug*

    Believe what you'd like. It's not really worth us debating on this one. (But your arguments seem illogical to me, just for the record.)
    Yes, I'd rather drop the debate, as all of these posts are cross posts and its very hard arguing points that people made several minutes ago.
    "Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program." - Linus Torvalds
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    Ok, so you think that the 17% will remain stable? Will the social factors change? Why? And is there more than just something social-- there are biological differences. Part of it might be something about men liking to take things apart and fix them-- I think there's a bit more to that than just social convention. (And there are going to obviously be exceptions, but statistically I wouldn't be surprised if, ignoring society, more men than women liked programming.)


    Once again, people are exposed to cutlery, but that doesn't meant that cutlery making is less of a specialised thing. Computers are taken for granted. The fact that everyone opuses them does not make anymore people think about how they work than before.
    It's such a bizarre comparison, though. Who likes cutlery? Who makes it? Of the 7 people out there who make spoons, who's to say that they weren't influenced by using spoons? Did it convince the rest of us to make spoons? No. But those 7? I guess so. You can't rule that out.
    If nothing else, the widespread use of something (spoons, computers, whatever) affects demand-- and when demand goes up, so does supply-- more programmers are thus needed. One way or the other...
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    Quote Originally Posted by djr33 View Post
    If nothing else, the widespread use of something (spoons, computers, whatever) affects demand-- and when demand goes up, so does supply-- more programmers are thus needed. One way or the other...
    Even as you say, demand effects the number of programmers more, rather than the number of young people who use computers. (Although it becomes rather complicated there as the demand == number of people using the computers, so the supply and demand are both coming from the same place)
    "Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program." - Linus Torvalds
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB
    Of course some people will, but a very small amount.
    Exactly. There is a small amount

    Quote Originally Posted by bernie
    Even as you say, demand effects the number of programmers more, rather than the number of young people who use computers. (Although it becomes rather complicated there as the demand == number of people using the computers, so the supply and demand are both coming from the same place)
    True. But that doesn't exclude that some of them end up wanting to be programmers because they become aware of it-- for example, the three of us having found this site. For me, I ended up becoming a programmer for a few reasons, but all based on finding out information on the internet-- finding online filmmaking, starting to make my own films, starting to make some basic websites (for a purpose, not for fun) and then finding myself involved in web design and especially DD. And now I'm, more or less, a programmer. There are a lot of hobby programmers out there, and some of them end up doing it as a career too.
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    I've forgotten what the argument is, I vote for a ceasefire.
    "Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program." - Linus Torvalds
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    I love watching you guys "stop debating"...
    It's like when someone posts "Last comment wins" on facebook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyboard1333 View Post
    It's like when someone posts "Last comment wins" on facebook.
    I've actually never seen that.
    "Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program." - Linus Torvalds
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    Ha, ha - I leave the scene for a few hours to wash my hair, tart-up and drive to work, and just look at all the worms that wriggled from that can.

    I read to page 5 just now and thought "stick a fork in me - I'm done". Rather apt for the way the line of conversation was going, but maybe too provocative for B & D - I'm sure I'd get a slap if their arms were long enough.

    I enjoyed the Guardian article Bernie. I suppose the whole computing scene is much less feminine and glamourous than some of the careers that are 'aimed' at impressionable young people in the media today. Thinking about "The IT Crowd" (one of my fave shows Dan) - much of the stereotype is of geeky, socially-awkward men who are holed away somewhere in a back office. There is very little attraction in that for young girls - they see much more appeal in fantasising themselves in the fashion editor/glamourous PR assistant/feminine-wiles-working Lois Lane reporter/high-flying lady media mogul roles, etc, that seem to be the only things pushed at them in magazines and popular teenage TV shows. But that's where the TV bods get their viewing figures right? It being easier to ride on the existing wave of popularity that these "safe" female roles have established than push boundaries and raise awareness in other areas. That would just be TOO risky - the teen girls wouldn't "identify" as easily and they'd lose ratings. It's just a vicious circle.

    Peer pressure doesn't help in the classroom and lunchtime clubs either - the clubs are almost entirely made up of boys. The difference is that students take compulsory IT qualifications in school now so the classrooms see a more even split in numbers. There's still a marked difference in ability though and I suppose that isnt helped by the cliques that emerge. Ive noticed it overflowing a lot into other forums (not DD) - where the replies just seem to be a barrage of comments aimed to belittle and intimidate newbies. There's a big "I know more than you and I'm going out of my way to prove it" mentality, which seems to start very early on in the classroom - the boys stick together in their safe little techno-group and the girls either get jovially teased and pushed away (still taking a hit to confidence) or getting totally ripped to shreds when their technical expertise is doubted.

    It was the visual aspect that got me interested in web development to begin with - I wanted to put pretty artwork on the internet. I guess that's where many women stop - in the designer role - but it wasnt enough for me. I kept asking "how" and "why" because I wanted to understand what this techno-malarkey was all about Im still not as "code-y" as some of you guys, but I'm getting there.
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    Hm. So you don't think it's starting to even out? I think it is, probably slowly. But I also don't think it'll ever necessarily end up at a 50/50 split.

    Interestingly if you look at TV shows, there's a big trend to have a woman as the main tech support person (especially in police/crime shows).
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    I would like to correct something I think was said here recently to the effect that we have 0% female regulars. Unless I was misunderstanding, Beverleyh is more than 0%.

    And we do get a lot of female participants here. Definitely not a 50/50 split, though. I'd say its closer to 30/70.

    If you only count participants who're legible and seem sincere, that might be closer to 40/60.

    I agree that nerdy female role models on TV are increasing. That's probably both a reflection of and a spur to conditions in the "real world".

    And I cringed a little reading what Beverleyh said about her workplace. That must be at least a little disconcerting, especially the part about being mistaken for the receptionist -

    "Please hold . . ." (15 minutes later) "OK it's really me now."

    Or (for repeat offenders):

    "Just a minute, I'll connect you." (hangs up the phone)
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