DD Social Thread (v1)

[jscheuer1]

There's less opinion involved here than you make out.

Facts:

When you kill someone they're dead, period.
You are killing innocent people.
It's not helping anybody or anything.

Reactionaries often want to make you think things are a matter of opinion when they're not. Don't be fooled. A civil society that respects human rights will evolve to a point where the death penalty is seen for what it is, a brutal and ineffectual means of dealing with crime.

In that way it's no different than freedom for slaves, a woman's right to vote, etc.

[bernie1227]

I disagree here, in my opinion:
1) is obviously a fact
2) false, I wouldn't call someone who kills 77 innocents innocent. What leads you to believe that they are?
3) false, it's ridding our society of people who can cause such harm to it

[jscheuer1]

Just because you kill one murderer, doesn't mean that you're not also killing innocent people. It's well documented that the innocent have often been put to death only later to be found innocent of the crimes of which they were accused.

We can rid society of people without killing them.

[bernie1227]

I'm not saying that that e death sentence is the best course of action, far from it, an actual life sentence would be a much better punishment, however in a hypothetical in which the person is definitely guilty, and there is a choice between death sentence or 22 years inprisonment, I choose death sentence.

[jscheuer1]

I agree that 22 years seems short for a life sentence. However, where is that again? I forgot. But I'm pretty sure they have it worked out in their minds there how that's appropriate and workable in that person's case, or you may have misunderstood the true length of his incarceration. Or they may be kidding themselves. How old is he? How old would he be if he survived the 22 years?

[bernie1227]

He's only 33 and he has a minimum sentence of 10 years, so if he is let out after that, he wil only be 43, the maximum his sentence has been set as is actually 21, so by the time he's most likely to be let out, he'll be 54, a couple of decades off the life expectancy.

[the cute]

congratulations to all

[traq]

Traq, are you saying that punishment is an extension of revenge?

lots of conversation since I went to bed last night...

I know the thread has moved past this, but since you asked:

No, not in general. Capital punishment, however, is a different matter. What is the point of punishment, if not revenge (inflicting pain / taking out your anger on someone)? I've always believed that punishment has only one legitimate motive: To correct behavior. Why do you spank a child? It serves as a concrete reminder that a behavior is unacceptable. (I'm not trying to start a debate on spanking, here. Other forms of punishment are based on the same idea.) The child remembers. An executed prisoner cannot remember, and cannot change their behavior.

[jscheuer1]

And, about this Biblical business of an eye for an eye:

Matthew 5:38, 5:39
You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So get over thinking the Bible tells us to execute people.

[james438]

traq, I just read your recently updated post from 5 pages ago!. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's applies to taxes and whether it is morally right to do so. It had to do with money, but it can also be applied to services such as military service or the law. It is Caesar that spends the money or our services. If I am told I must work on the Lord's day or pray to another god than I must respectfully disobey. We are to obey the laws of man.

jscheuer1, that verse is talking about revenge and taking the law into your own hands.

traq, revenge, discipline, and punishment are three different things.

Revenge is retaliating against a person for wrongs done to them. He hit me so I will hit him back. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. Most likely you have heard that line before.

Punishment is the just (law approved) response/penalty to a wrong. It is not emotionally motivated, but done in an orderly fashion for the protection of society and as an appropriate response to a wrong committed. Justice (punishment) should never be emotionally motivated. That is what the law and legal system is for.

Discipline is specifically used to produce moral and mental improvement, self-control. Capital Punishment won't do that nor is it designed to; neither for society nor for the individual.

I am still attempting to stay out of this thread as much as I can, but I wanted to clarify a few things.