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Thread: The Irish have been cheated (and I'm not even Irish!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by djr33 View Post
    On the other hand, sports are about the natural elements that occur. [...] At that point a computer might as well just calculate who will win by stats and go from there.
    I don't really see how you reach that conclusion. Just because we would have two extra referees, or even some sort of technology further on, in order to make sure the rules are being followed, does not mean the natural elements would not occur. The point of rules is just that, to remove all factors, except for the skills and tactics of the players and the natural elements. That is why players are not allowed to bring ak47s and shoot the opponents or to pick up the ball in their hands and score.

    Quote Originally Posted by jscheuer1 View Post
    The only sport I really follow, and not all that well, though better than the casual observer, is baseball. [...] I feel that if the umpires miss a call, it just means that the play was too close for the human eye and probably shouln't have counted anyway. [...] If they have a valid point, 9 times in 10 the umpires will rectify the situation with a later call. [...] So I say, "Why bother?"
    Baseball is not football, in football there are no later calls. I don't think anyone would agree with you that Henry's handballs should not have counted because it was "too close for the human eye". Why bother? Because all the time, effort and money that a country puts into a team and all the hopes and dreams of all the fans are just destroyed with one referee being on the wrong side of a handball.

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    That's life.
    - John
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    I stand by what I said: the officials are part of the game. Certainly officials who are unreliable should be fired, but in this case they just didn't see it. I'm not saying I don't think a little more regulation would hurt, but the game is about playing and people, not about absolute rules or facts. Perhaps, like timeouts, coaches should get one or two "video replays" per game, for this specific sort of thing, but having in general something that replaces the referees is just not the same game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscheuer1 View Post
    That's life.
    What? Anarchy?

    Quote Originally Posted by djr33 View Post
    having in general something that replaces the referees is just not the same game.
    Two extra linesmen don't replace the referee, they assist him.



    P.S. This thread needs more cowbell.

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    You obviously are upset with the outcome. You want to change things so that you can get the outcome that you want. Be careful what you wish for. Adding in computers and/or extra referees may have different results than you imagine.

    By "That's life" I do mean a bit of anarchy. Life is chaotic. Life is unfair. There is always an element of chance. We may do legal and illegal, moral and immoral, prudent and imprudent, sublime and ridiculous, etc. things to try to eliminate that chaos, that chance. But we can never eliminate it altogether, and to the extent that we do succeed, we are less alive. In the world of sports, this element of chance adds to the excitement. The more things you do to remove it, the duller your game becomes.

    When I said bad calls are often compensated for by later calls, I believe I also mentioned that sometimes they are not. Even in baseball (just like in other sports) there's a chance that a game may hinge on a bad call. This chance increases late in a close game. That's life.
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    Two extra linesmen would still allow for plenty of error.
    Daniel - Freelance Web Design | <?php?> | <html>| espa˝ol | Deutsch | italiano | portuguŕs | catalÓ | un peu de franšais | some knowledge of several other languages: I can sometimes help translate here on DD | Linguistics Forum

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    No offense, but is that your argument?

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    My argument is that it's just a game. Perfection is not part of a real life game, and trying to artificially impose it afterwords seems, well, artificial.
    I like the idea of allowing teams one or two video replay challenges per game, just to keep things sane, but anything beyond that seems too much, to me.

    Why not add a linesman at every line? They can have lawn chairs and their whole job is to watch that line, so that there are never any more errors. And when one makes a bad call, should the video replay still overrule them? Why not just write a program that will take the place of them, or at least use a single guy with a computer as the judge-- that would be easy.

    Honestly, I don't care that much. I just don't see the huge problem with having bad calls once in a while. It's part of the game. Of course really bad calls (like this one) are more than should be tolerated, but how would you attempt to determine when "better" means of checking should be used? Should the fans vote?

    On the other hand, since the player himself said he messed up, that is plenty of evidence for the call to be reversed, BUT the catch there is that not everyone is so honest, so the honest players would get decisions changed and dishonest players would keep their goals, etc.

    This is something like the steroids debate. They're bad and should be disallowed. But how can you check? Should they do blood tests every time a player walks onto the field? Perhaps implant blood level monitoring devices in their arms?
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    Not everything has to be so drastic, the two extra linesmen have already been tested in Europa League games with good results. The need for linesmen on those positions (right of the goals) has been discussed for a long time, since none of the three referees have a good view over those areas. I don't know much about baseball and "football" and how the referees are over there, but over here, I think about half of all the games you see end in discussions about the referee making bad calls.

    What I'm trying to suggest is not turning everyone into robots or whatever, I'm just saying that the outcome of a game should be decided by the players, not by the referee.

    Regarding steroids, I read an article a couple of months ago arguing that "some" steroids should be allowed (I think it only talked about the world of athletics). The arguments were that the athletes would not have to go to such great lengths to dope themselves and not getting caught and that it would make the competition more fair, since not all people are built the same. They pointed out that only African and South-American people make it into the 100 meter finals. I don't have any knowledge or opinion about this, I just thought I'd mention it.

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    The arguments about right or wrong calls are typically biased-- rarely do people complain "that official was so wrong today giving our team such good calls".
    It's that bias (and its nature as a part of sports) that makes things how they are. Really wrong calls like the one discussed in this thread are exceptions, but officials typically give their own sense of the game to those they monitor-- for example, in hockey, officials are very free to decide whether or not to call certain things depending on the current moment in the game. Different styles will lead to different games.

    Officials are very similar to police. Having a police state is no fun for anyone. Everyone breaks the law a little, and having it fully monitored makes life worse for everyone.

    Two more linesmen may be a good idea. But at the same time, it might just give a different feeling to the game, one in which there are still ways that it may be unfair to one team or the other, and that's just because the situation has changed, but the randomness of the game has not.
    Daniel - Freelance Web Design | <?php?> | <html>| espa˝ol | Deutsch | italiano | portuguŕs | catalÓ | un peu de franšais | some knowledge of several other languages: I can sometimes help translate here on DD | Linguistics Forum

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