Hm, interesting point, John, but I guess the basic answer is that PHP is messy. I find it straightforward and very functional, but frequently not at all logical. That's why certain people (ie, Twey, etc.) have strong objections, and they're not wrong. At the same time, of course, to me if it gets done what I need without too much of a headache I'm happy, so PHP is decent as far as I'm concerned.