The day that changed America (and probably the world too)

[TheJoshMan]

Well, just about anything will be an improvement, and we can hope for a lot more than that.

I absolutely agree about that! This country is so far in the $h1t hole right now, there's nowhere to go but UP!

I do have one thing about Obama that doesn't please me. The fact that he favors legalization for illegal aliens who are currently employed in the US. How much audacity does it take to openly admit that you want to make illegal aliens legal since they work here? That's just asking for MORE illegal aliens to hop the border and find a job with a fake ID. With the economy the way it is now, LEGAL citizens need jobs and can't find them due to the overwhelming numbers of illegal aliens willing to work for peanuts.

I'm also not very fond of the idea of full birth abortions, but I guess if a woman wants to kill her baby that should be her decision. That's a very heated topic though. I completely understand about things like rape, incest, or if the mother is going to DIE by giving birth or carrying the baby full term... I just don't know if killing a baby after it leaves the womb should be called abortion... I mean, why not just call it "legalized murder"?

Just my two cents anyhoo.

[djr33]

I'm fully in favor of allowing abortion as a legal option and decision by the mother, but the point at which the baby can survive on its own marks something different than abortion, and anyone responsible should figure out what she's going to do before that point.

As for going up, yeah. Mccain would have been an improvement.

As for the immigrants, it's a more complex issue than that-- if you're willing to work for less than minimum wage in terrible conditions, then go join the illegal aliens once they're legalized, and you'll have a job. They're not really taking the jobs that people want, though I can see overlap once they're legalized, perhaps.

[magicyte]

I'm fully in favor of allowing abortion as a legal option and decision by the mother

I respectfully disagree. I know America is a free place and all, but it just isn't right to have an abortion. You are destroying a child's life, for better or for worse, and that is not right.

As for going up, yeah. Mccain would have been an improvement.

I respectfully agree, even though I am an Independant.

-magicyte

[molendijk]

I do have one thing about Obama that doesn't please me. The fact that he favors legalization for illegal aliens who are currently employed in the US. How much audacity does it take to openly admit that you want to make illegal aliens legal since they work here?

Aliens? Are you talking about Martians, or about people who are willing to WORK in order to have an honest daily meal?

With the economy the way it is now, LEGAL citizens need jobs and can't find them due to the overwhelming numbers of illegal aliens willing to work for peanuts.

What's wrong with people (not aliens!) willing to work for peanuts? I would say they show more perseverance than people who only want to work for big money. Your 'legal' citizen is nothing more or less than someone who had the luck to be born on side side of the border instead of on the other side. (There's nothing 'legal' or 'illegal' about where you were born). I get the smell of 'my own people first' here. It reminds me of something of the past, sorry). By the way, I hope you realize why the economy went the way it is now: certain people wanted to make big money by doing obscure things that have nothing to do with honest work.

I completely understand about things like rape, incest, or if the mother is going to DIE by giving birth or carrying the baby full term... I just don't know if killing a baby after it leaves the womb should be called abortion... I mean, why not just call it "legalized murder"?

If you understand about things like rape etc., then don't call it murder. That's verbal demagogism. Abortion is just about the things you say to 'completely understand' yourself. And what do you mean by 'I just don't know if killing a baby after it leaves the womb should be called abortion'. As far as I know, nobody ever would allow that to happen.
Arie.

[james438]

You should keep up with the abortion issue some more molendijk

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...5/404kfgky.asp
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRpIf2F9NA

Many democrats (and especially Obama) are pushing for after birth abortions. Every time after birth abortion has come up Obama has voted for it. I hear about it on the news all the time. I was shocked when I first heard about after birth abortions. I believe it was called "wrongful birth" or something like that the first time it was introduced in congress. Just do a simple search for it on google and you'll find out more about it.

Personally I am against abortion in all cases unless the life of the mother and the child are at stake and there is zero chance that the baby will be born alive. If all of those conditions are met then I am for abortion.

The term for abortion after birth is more commonly known as infanticide. I call it murder. It is not verbal demagogism on my part when I use the word murder. I use that term to mean the unlawful killing of another person. People have tried to find new ways to excuse murder that they give it new names like abortion or RU486 (are you for 86? ("the combatant has been 86'd sir")). Murder is still murder. I use the term unlawful here to mean that which directly violates God's word (the Bible). Yes, I know hardly anybody these days really is Christian, but so what?

In fact in my experience most people who claim to be Christian are not. Almost always Christians will get really angry (livid) at the notion that there is a God and especially that there is only one way to salvation and that is through repentance and acceptance of Jesus as lord and savior. Christians hate that. Non Christians seem fine with that however. Kinda odd really.

No matter. Obama will soon be president and life goes on. Part of being a Christian means abiding with the current government, to pray for our leaders and to pay taxes even if those taxes go towards abortions. Unless the current government leadership demands that I directly disobey God's word I will honor and respect the leadership as he was appointed by the people and ultimately by God Himself even if that appointed person is evil. Obama could have been worse after all. Actually, I am not so sure that McCain would have been all that much better than Obama. Being an inept president is ok with me. Being solidly reformed and Christian is what I look for in a leader. The rest is secondary.

I try not to let this get to me, but it really does bother me. It bothers me that so very many evangelical Christians voted for Obama and it bothers me that so many people know so little about the issues.

The funny thing is that many people voted for him simply because they like one tiny issue or another and could care less about illegal aliens or abortion or socialized medicine, but like him because he is black. That actually doesn't bother me. The fact that he is black is actually a good thing, but it doesn't outweigh his position on the other issues as being so very wrong (sinful or evil). What bothers me is that Christians voted for him in such numbers and I can't imagine why. I'm sad about that. It bothers me. I am not angry. I don't really know what this feeling is exactly. disappointment? frustration? confusion? None of these feelings are towards Obama. Well, maybe a little. Much of this feeling, I suspect, is directed towards Christians who voted for him.

[tfit]

I am pro freedom.
I never understood why some people want to tell other people how to live their life. If you're against abortion than don't, what gives you the right to tell others what they should do. Also the questions if some parents are able to provide a good life for the child remains unanswered.
As vegetarian i wonder if these pro-life people are as passionate about pro life of animals!?

[james438]

If you're against abortion than don't, what gives you the right to tell others what they should do.

all laws are nothing more than legislating morality. Beyond that I have said all I care to say on the question/statement first posed in this thread in my previous post. Other than that my heart is not into debate.

[molendijk]

You should keep up with the abortion issue some more molendijk ... Many democrats (and especially Obama) are pushing for after birth abortions.

James438, I didn't follow the discussion about 'after birth abortion' (I'm not an American), but I cannot imagine that people who voted for it did it out of immorality. I think their line of reasoning would be: 'if a baby survives abortion, then, if it can only survive in miserable circonstances (being dependent of a machine, suffering unbearable pain all the time), then, given the fact that it cannot tell whether of not it wants to live that miserable life, let's leave things 'as they are', and 'let nature decide'.
In this regard, notice that keeping human beings alive with the help of machinery that your God didn't have in mind when he told you to respect life, can be as immoral as finishing the life of a suffering person who didn't ask you to finish his or her life. Medical progress (being able to keep someone alive in more and more artificial situations) should always be in line with ethics.

Personally I am against abortion in all cases unless the life of the mother and the child are at stake and there is zero chance that the baby will be born alive. If all of those conditions are met then I am for abortion.

I almost agree with you, but see above.

The term for abortion after birth is more commonly known as infanticide.

That is verbal demagogism, see above.

I use the term unlawful here to mean that which directly violates God's word (the Bible).

Talking about God and killing babies / children: you certainly know that God ordered Abraham to kill his own son.

In fact in my experience most people who claim to be Christian are not.

That has nothing to do with the issue. Religion and morality are separate things.

Part of being a Christian means abiding with the current government, to pray for our leaders and to pay taxes even if those taxes go towards abortions.

And to obey the leader even if he's some sort of a Hitler?
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Arie.

[TheJoshMan]

@molendijk? You don't even live in America yet you are partaking (and getting quite adamant) in a heated debate about our president. lol

I am only to assume that you are simply being a smart @$$ about "what is an alien" and so forth. It is quite sad actually, that you would attempt to shoot holes in an American's point of view when you are not even an American yourself.

Granted, the illegal immigrants aren't doing the most "pleasant" of jobs. However, do you really think that many of us "middle class" people will have "nice" jobs in the near future? At the rate that the economy is falling, it won't be long before people like us... Computer nerds who frequent these forums, are going to be wishing we could work in a damn chicken plant like Tyson. JUST so that we can have a job AT ALL. (purely speculation of course)

[molendijk]

@molendijk? You don't even live in America yet you are partaking (and getting quite adamant) in a heated debate about our president. lol

Now, that's nice! Why shouldn't I talk about America when, at the same time, America talks about (the destiny of) the rest of the world (and tries to control whole parts of the rest of the world!). I don't say they don't sometimes have reasons to do so. I'm just saying that I have the right to talk about what happens in your country, because your country often tries to control what happens in my country, directly or indirectly. What happens in America affects my country as well. So I feel free to talk about what's going on in your part of the world.

I am only to assume that you are simply being a smart @$$ about "what is an alien" and so forth.

I'm not a native speaker of English, so I may have misunderstood what you mean by 'alien'. Given certain connotations attached to that word, I thought that, by using it, you asserted something unfriendly about certain non-Americans.

It is quite sad actually, that you would attempt to shoot holes in an American's point of view when you are not even an American yourself.

It is quite sad actually, that certain American leaders would attempt to shoot holes in the points of view of people living in other parts of the world when those (American) leaders are not even Russians, Chinese, Dutch, Germans etc. themselves.

Granted, the illegal immigrants aren't doing the most "pleasant" of jobs. However, do you really think that many of us "middle class" people will have "nice" jobs in the near future? At the rate that the economy is falling, it won't be long before people like us... Computer nerds who frequent these forums, are going to be wishing we could work in a damn chicken plant like Tyson. JUST so that we can have a job AT ALL. (purely speculation of course)

Yes, that would be a pity. But that's not the Mexican's (etc.) fault. Why do you think the whole economy thing started in the first place? Not the fault of the 'aliens'. I think that Dmitry Medvedev was partly right when he said that US selfishness should be blamed for it (I myself would rather say: 'Western selfishness'; see this link).
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As for me being adamant (I had to look up the word in the dictionary), I think that part of what you feel about my words and phrases has to do with the fact that I'm not a native speaker of English, so a certain subtleness is not in my vocabulary. Anyhow, the fact that we can communicate has to do with the willingness of many non-Americans to learn English.
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Arie (You can get a free course of Dutch, if you like, so that you can shoot holes in my point of view. In Dutch, of course. But leave the dykes intact: no holes there!)