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Thread: Internet Explorer being sued

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    But have you ever tried to buy one? They're not listed as options for most systems.
    I have both 4 in the last 4 months alone, 3 for work and 1 for home. 3 from Dell, and 1 from HP. Each was easily found on their site as an option.

    Only small ones. Most users want Windows -- the semi-monopoly propagates itself.
    But the fact remains, and the choices are out there. Because a person wants something more, and the option is there, it is not, by definition a monopoly. If someone wanted to buy a non MS computer and couldn't, then you would have a case.
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    Not to press the point, but monopolies do not need 100% of the market; they just need a large majority. Given enough data, one could argue that MS is a monopoly despite there being competetors.
    Trinithis

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    Maybe we could get together a class action lawsuit here in the forum against MS and their IE browsers, which over the years have constituted 'cruel and unusual punishment' for serious coders. We could seek damages (lost revenue due to hours wasted coding specifically for their sub-standard software), and more importantly, 'pain and suffering'.
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    I and a friend of mine had a project named "dIE" in our minds. A place where developers would share their "horrible" memories about Internet Explorer, and we would mention whether IE should be erased from existence completly or it should renew itself to be compatible with the standards. Anyone in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BYK View Post
    I and a friend of mine had a project named "dIE" in our minds. A place where developers would share their "horrible" memories about Internet Explorer, and we would mention whether IE should be erased from existence completly or it should renew itself to be compatible with the standards. Anyone in?
    I'm beginning to understand another reason why IE is such a target.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinithis View Post
    Not to press the point, but monopolies do not need 100% of the market; they just need a large majority. Given enough data, one could argue that MS is a monopoly despite there being competetors.
    By shear definition:

    Monopoly (Economics):

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    In economics, a monopoly (from the Latin word monopolium - Greek language monos, one + polein, to sell) is defined as a persistent market situation where there is only one provider of a product or service.
    Quote Originally Posted by Princeton.edu
    # (economics) a market in which there are many buyers but only one seller; "a monopoly on silver"; "when you have a monopoly you can ask any price ...
    # exclusive control or possession of something; "They have no monopoly on intelligence"
    Quote Originally Posted by argmax.com
    The sole seller of a good or service in a market.
    Quote Originally Posted by WVU.edu
    A market structure characterized by a single seller of a well-defined commodity for which there are no good substitutes and by high barriers to the entry of other firms into the market for that commodity.
    Over and over.. CHOICE is the determining factor in economics. Does the buyer have a choice? Do competition sellers have a choice to enter the market?

    MS is not a monopoly, they do have monopolistic tendencies, but who in business doesn't want to rule the world?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLiZZaRD View Post
    By shear definition:MS is not a monopoly, they do have monopolistic tendencies, but who in business doesn't want to rule the world?
    Linux, FF, Opera, to name a few relevant to this discussion. One part of one of your definitions:

    high barriers to the entry of other firms
    seems particularly apropos. I know you cover this by redefining MS as having 'monopolistic tendencies', as opposed to being an outright monopoly. I'm not certain about the laws governing commerce though. The historic and current monopolies were either eventually broken and/or sanctioned by law at various times (Ma Bell, Major League Baseball, Standard Oil). Collusion in pursuit of a monopoly may also be a legal issue I believe. If so, MS is hot and thick (if not in fact violating the letter of the law) in this area.
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    True, but from the white papers I have seen of the contracts with Dell and HP, MS isn't disallowing other software vendors from being preinstalled.

    The same can be said of other companies in a more-so effect today. High schools being "Nike only" or "Coke only."

    Or cable and phone companies that will service only a certain area and no other company has rights to that area. Those are bigger monopolies than MS can ever hope to be. There is no choice for persons/ end users in some of those situations.
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    That is one of the most cogent multi-quote-and-response posts I have ever seen!
    I'm glad you liked it.
    I have both 4 in the last 4 months alone, 3 for work and 1 for home. 3 from Dell, and 1 from HP. Each was easily found on their site as an option.
    OK, let's pretend I'm a somewhat savvy but not entirely IT-oriented customer. I fancy a new PC to play Half Life 7 Episode 4 SP6 Gold Edition, so I fire up dell.co.uk in my favourite web browser. Hm... desktops, home. I fancy pretending I'm rich (hey, let me dream) so I hit the XPS series, choose the top-of-the-range XPS720H2C, and hit customise. My choices for operating system are:
    • Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005 - English add £0.00
    • Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium - English [Included in Price]
    • Genuine Windows® XP Professional - English [add £50.00 or £1/month]
    • Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate - English [add £70.00 or £2/month]
      With Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate: The best of all worlds, including business, mobility, networking and home entertainment features.
    It doesn't even list "no OS," much less any other OS. Even if I want XP Pro I have to pay extra, and the cheapest ones are included in the price. Where's the choice there?
    Maybe we could get together a class action lawsuit here in the forum against MS and their IE browsers, which over the years have constituted 'cruel and unusual punishment' for serious coders. We could seek damages (lost revenue due to hours wasted coding specifically for their sub-standard software), and more importantly, 'pain and suffering'.
    I'm not sure about the "pain and suffering" part, but you might have a serious case on the lost revenue front. Any lawyers in the audience?
    By shear definition:
    Indeed, thus my reference to it as a "semi-monopoly." It's a case of using business practices that are both unfair to competitors and bad for the computer industry as a whole (since their products tend to stray from the standard in negative ways) to make the entrance barrier as high as possible rather than an actual monopoly per se.
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    OK, let's pretend I'm a somewhat savvy but not entirely IT-oriented customer.
    I would suggest you look at all the options and see the link on the left under "Essential" for the link to "Open Source PCs"

    And if you know what you want, you know how to find it. You are not going to want a Mac and go to a PC shop, if you want a PC the options and choices are there. By default as a business, If I sold computers I would put MS enabled computers up front as well. Complete build systems are going to be sold as 98% (or more) with MS anyway. Those that don't run Linux or other Open OSes, and don't want a Mac, will want MS. If you know you want a Mac, you get one of those.

    The point being that put what sells up front. But the link to the left isn't hidden, either. If you were savvy as you say, I would expect you to do a little bit or reading before clicking the add-to-cart button anyway

    It's a case of using business practices that are both unfair to competitors...
    ...to make the entrance barrier as high as possible...
    Ahh.. but part of that is to limit the competition by raising those barriers, and part of that is in dollars and cents. PCs are selling far far cheaper than their competition, and not to bring down their competition. Mac chooses the cost of their machines, and could bing the price down if they so choose, but they don't. By that nature the competition for business is out, and all that is left is the actual product.

    Still not a monopoly.
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