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Thread: a design question

  1. #11
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    a) which development tools you are familar and/or want to experiment with
    This shouldn't be a barrier. Neither should be an issue for a commercial site.
    b) 'your' target audiences
    The target audience should always be the widest range possible. This isn't a question like the one faced by stylists, where it's either one target group or another; the aim in web design is to reach as many people as possible, which will, of course, include the primary target audience.
    c) the requirements of the projects. The dictation of your boss/clients.
    If the boss/client demands that you deliberately degrade your site, I suggest you remind them (gently, of course) of which of you was hired as the expert.
    d) the maintenance, the dynamics, the supports issues
    Again, I see no contest here: Flash is less maintainable and not as well supported.
    Twey & Everyone: I thank you your your comments. I think I will incorporate my flash segments of my gallery within a HTML page
    I still don't understand why you're using Flash.
    but that's not really what I 'd like to ask.
    The answers to your questions aren't always the ones you expect
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    Overuse of flash is awful.
    Only use flash when you absolutely need to.

    But... you need to when you want something graphic or interactive, in many cases.

    But... even then, PLEASE don't design the whole site in flash... just do the chunks that need to be flash, even if it's mostly the chunks of flash that are there, and just a table housing the flash, it still makes sense. That's an extreme example, though. The more you can do with just html, the better.
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    But... you need to when you want something graphic or interactive, in many cases.
    Many cases, yes, but not nearly as many cases as people seem to think. More specifically, not in this case. I think that was rather the point.
    Twey | I understand English | 日本語が分かります | mi jimpe fi le jbobau | mi esperanton komprenas | je comprends franšais | entiendo espa˝ol | t˘i Ýt hiểu tiếng Việt | ich verstehe ein bisschen Deutsch | beware XHTML | common coding mistakes | tutorials | various stuff | argh PHP!

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    Yes Twey, the OP was talking about a Flash site, but the only content was for images. I completley agree one should try to offer fall backs for those without Flash, but as stated if a user doesn't have Flash, they will be less likely to have Java or JS enabled. As all 3 are now installed with the browser, at least the most common ones.

    Which was my entire point as well, if images are the focus of your site, you can't have a text only fall back, and with images, I personally feel that displaying them in Flash is much easier than coding CSS and JS and anything else that would need to be done. Especially if the web designer knows their way around Flash already, instead of trying to learn new languages for a simple task.

    @tvfoto of course you can email me. For spam purposes I wont post it here, but it is in my profile or you can PM me for other options
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    As all 3 are now installed with the browser, at least the most common ones.
    Flash is only installed with IE, as far as I know.
    I personally feel that displaying them in Flash is much easier than coding CSS and JS and anything else that would need to be done.
    This is the myth I'm trying to dispel here
    Especially if the web designer knows their way around Flash already, instead of trying to learn new languages for a simple task.
    Every decent webmaster (which the OP evidently is, if considering designing a commercial site) knows JS. It's one of the three fundamental languages of the Web.
    Twey | I understand English | 日本語が分かります | mi jimpe fi le jbobau | mi esperanton komprenas | je comprends franšais | entiendo espa˝ol | t˘i Ýt hiểu tiếng Việt | ich verstehe ein bisschen Deutsch | beware XHTML | common coding mistakes | tutorials | various stuff | argh PHP!

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    So then I am NOT a decent web designer, as I don't know ANY language, except HTML and some very basic CSS? I can't even spell JS let alone use it, and PHP is far too left field.

    but 2 million unique IPs to my site in the first 12 months with an average visit time of over 10 minutes per? Something must be right....


    anyway tvfoto Check out this link for a step by step tutorial on a very nice and customizable Image slide show/ gallery.
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    So then I am NOT a decent web designer, as I don't know ANY language, except HTML and some very basic CSS? I can't even spell JS let alone use it, and PHP is far too left field.
    You should definitely look into learning. The "three fundamental languages" I mentioned are HTML, CSS and JS, although a server-side language is very helpful, and vital for some types of sites. You can get by without JS, especially with the aid of something like Flash, but you'll experience a lot of problems when you try to use Flash (for example) for things where other languages would do better. As the saying goes, when your only tool is a hammer, all problems look like nails.

    On a more positive note, if you're familiar with ActionScript, Javascript should be no problem.
    Twey | I understand English | 日本語が分かります | mi jimpe fi le jbobau | mi esperanton komprenas | je comprends franšais | entiendo espa˝ol | t˘i Ýt hiểu tiếng Việt | ich verstehe ein bisschen Deutsch | beware XHTML | common coding mistakes | tutorials | various stuff | argh PHP!

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    Oh, I don't doubt your intentions here at all Twey, and believe you me I AM trying to learn languages. JS is included, along with PHP and JAVA and BASIC and a few select others, as well as finally trying to get a grip on *n?x (which I have come a LOOOONNNGGG way in doing, with some thanks to you )

    My main argument here, and not really an argument but another blind opinion, is that what the OP wanted was done in the way he asked for help.

    Yes, he mentioned a Flash site, but that is like calling a stew a soup. Technically it is a soup, much like my site can be considered a "Flash Site" My first 2 pages are 98% flash, and I have Flash only games as other sporatic Flash pages. Over all my site is pure HTML and PHP, but I can call it a Flash site based on its general content.

    So taking that comment from the OP with a grain of salt, and seeing as he posted in the Flash thread, I assumed s/he wanted a Flash answer for the image problem. The OP mentioned no knowledge of JS, JAVA, or any other language, but showed some knowledge of AS and Flash.

    I was arguing that already knowing AS and how to get around in Flash would be easier on HIM/HER rather than the end user. And with the reach of Flash in todays web browsers, the use of Flash should not be limited.

    Rather than saying JS would be easier than Flash to accomplish the same thing, I said I don't think this is true. Perhaps for you, sir, it would be, but for those like myself, I know Flash, but not JS, so to do this type of image gallery thing I could spend a few hours in Flash and build something final, OR I could spend a few days learning JS first and then attempt to build something with that.

    When most people are asking for something they either have a deadline or they want it now anyway. Using a medium you already know is going to be easier to get the desired results.
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    I was, of course, working from the assumption that the levels of knowledge of Flash and JS are equal, and I quite agree with you that if a deadline arises, it may occasionally be necessary to use only that with which the developer is familiar. However, I was saying that this was not a good idea, and was asking the OP exactly why s/he was doing it in this case. If told that Flash was the only language with which s/he felt comfortable, and that s/he had a deadline which prevented him/her from learning to do the site properly, I would have posted some links to JS tutorials for later perusal and bowed out. However, s/he has still provided no reason as to why s/he is using this method, which leads me to the unpleasant conclusion (and please, tvfoto, do pardon the implied insult to your intelligence if this is not the case) that s/he is using Flash simply because s/he can, or because s/he thinks it intrinsically better suited for this task. Thus, I was attempting to explain why the former is not a good idea, and why the latter is untrue, as well as providing suitable alternatives.
    I assumed s/he wanted a Flash answer for the image problem.
    I am certain s/he did. However, unfortunately, the answer for which the OP asks isn't always the one that needs to be given
    I could spend a few days learning JS
    Oh, I doubt that. Both JS and AS are profiles of EMCAScript, so I should imagine that learning one with prior knowledge of the other would merely be a case of memorising some objects.
    I know Flash, but not JS
    Again without insult intended, and sheerly out of curiosity, why did you choose this path? Most web designers would learn the better-supported (and built-in) language first, then move on to the plugin content later. Did you do some Flash-based development for a platform other than the Web at some point?
    JS is included, along with PHP and JAVA and BASIC and a few select others
    My advice would be to stick to a single language until you are very familiar with it. Javascript doesn't count here, since to all intents and purposes (in my opinion) you already know the better part of it by association with ActionScript. I would suggest going in-depth with Java, which I find very simple and logical, and thus an ideal first language. BASIC should rightfully be dead I've yet to see a useful implementation of BASIC or its derived languages (on modern systems) outside application-specific embedding.
    Twey | I understand English | 日本語が分かります | mi jimpe fi le jbobau | mi esperanton komprenas | je comprends franšais | entiendo espa˝ol | t˘i Ýt hiểu tiếng Việt | ich verstehe ein bisschen Deutsch | beware XHTML | common coding mistakes | tutorials | various stuff | argh PHP!

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    I think, to answer your questions as honestly as possible, that it really depends on the "type" of learner.

    I am artistic in nature, and I learn better by "seeing" my efforts.

    I got into Flash when I found it back in it's early stages. I was a early teen and the internet was nothing to me, Netscape was the only browser I knew about and I only went to one site (riddler.com LMAO)

    I downloaded the Flash trial and watched the "hot to tween" tutorial that came with it. I then made a little movie with a stick man walking to the center and being smashed with a huge rock. I fell in love with it then.

    At that point even AS was a mute point. AS 1.0 (for me) did nothing. Later as Flash advanced and I advanced, I started seeing how AS could do the same things as frame by frame aniimation, so I could draw one rock, and use AS to make 40 rocks. This from where I was used to drawing the 40 rocks.

    I have practical applications for Flash, such as games and menus, and I draw what I see in my head, then apply the AS to the images I have just created. For me, AS means I can see my results in a matter of minutes.

    I have tried the same with JS but it is all a blank page in notepad waiting for code. I don't have a "practical" use for it (as far as game design, etc) and therefore have no real basis to test scripts and code snippets on.

    So I end up with a page full of code and wonder what it does. The graphical element of Flash is what does it.

    Also the fact that I can click on an image and put code on THAT image and ONLY where I want it to do something, where, with JS I have to declare all my variables in one spot, call them over here, etc etc. I guess I mean my "code" doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be there. I can also have "conflicting" codes on the same thing and as long as I use each the way it was intended it will work without error.

    I was already deep into Flash, making little desktop games and videos long before I truly discovered the internet.

    I have no formal training on anything to do with computers. I was given an IBM 8088 when I was 12 with an external Haynes 2400 modem and a notebook full of BBS numbers. Everything I know to this point is self taught and I only realize there is a problem when something doesn't work, or stops working, and I have to go and figure out how to fix it myself, using forums like this and Google. Or the old take-it-apart-and-blow-on-it method.

    This type of "self-tutoring" has carried over to my web design. I know it's not right, and I really do try to learn the languages, but its not that simple for me, to just pick up a book, or go to a web site and just start doing it. I can look at a full page of AS and pretty much tell you whats going on in the movie without ever seeing a graphic, but make that code JS and I couldn't even tell you what language it was written in. I am just weird I guess

    And as far as JS and Flash differences, I don't see it as merely memorizing objects, although I am positive SOME of it is (like OOP) but then I haven't gotten too deep into OOP either. I think it is a more physical and (un?) logical placement of the scripts that makes AS easier than JS to follow and understand.
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