The Bible and homosexuality

Edit: Moderator's Note: Hot topics like this can easily devolve into a flame war and can upset many people. This thread will be closely watched to be sure that does not happen. Please do not be offended if this thread gets moved, deleted, or closed and it may be closed early to prevent this. This thread has been separated from the thread The purpose of life as it is significantly off topic and I really don't want to hijack that thread any further than I already have.

James, I have been thinking. And I've studied your website. This is ment seriously. No offense.
What would you do if you had to choose between what you call glorifying God and fully enjoy him forever and loving your homosexual son or daughter who doesn't harm anyone? Would you prefer what you think are Gods commandments to the love for your own child? Would you tell him/her that he/she commits sin? Or would you tell your child that it's OK and that you love him/her no matter what, FOR EVER?
Does a loving father tell his child that he/she is sinful just because of his/her sexual preference?
This is just an exampe of the questions raised by your Catechism and website.

Thank you for asking! I decided against responding to your original response to catechism question number 1 because I didn't want to hijack your thread and potentially start an argument.

The important thing to remember about the practicing homosexual is that homosexuality is a sin just like any other and is that which separates us from a right relationship with God and which we are all guilty of. If we do not have a right relationship with God then we are under God's condemnation and will suffer the punishments of sin in a tormented body and soul forever. It is only through the atoning work of Jesus that those to whom God has effectually called to place their faith in Jesus for their salvation from the wrath of God for sin that will be saved from the torments of hell and be placed in a right relationship with God.

If my son tells me that he is a homosexual through and through I would love him no less, but because I love him I would want him to be aware that what he is doing is sinful, but that there is hope for the sinner for which I am one as well and no less guilty before a holy and righteous God.

For the homosexual he often equates homosexuality with who he is. To tell him that homosexuality is a sin is often translated in his mind that I am calling him sin as opposed to him as a sinner. He probably believes that it is so embedded into who he is that there is no hope for him. I wish I could talk with him because he can counter his desires if he wants to! There is hope! Like any problematic sin what he needs to do is replace the sin with the correct expression for his desires.

The thief must no longer steal, but do honest labor so that he can give to those in need. The liar should lie no more, but instead tell the truth. The adulterer/fornicator should stop fornicating and instead have sex with his wife.

What if he has no sexual desire for the opposite sex, but rather for the same sex? It will take time, but he can change his sexual desires. It could be that this will be something that he as a new creature in Christ struggles with and against for the rest of his life, but if my son turns away from sin and places his faith on Jesus he will have assurance of salvation for the punishment his sins deserve and I will be relieved to say the least! I would not love my son or God if I left him to his sin and the state that he was in. Sin is something all Christians struggle with.

If my son chose to continue in his sin I would not love my son any less, but would mourn for his soul knowing that without repenting and believing on Christ for his salvation he will be doomed to an eternity of torments in hell for his sin (not just the sin of homosexuality, but for all of his sins).

Homosexuality has long been of particular interest to me for many years now although I do not struggle with it. I work at a theater where there are many that identify as homosexual. When/if the discussion comes up I try not to talk about the problem of homosexuality, but rather the need for a savior from sin. After all, homosexuality is a sin like any other. I try not to talk about this during work because that would be stealing from my employer when I should be working.

My current goal is to talk with a few people that previously identified as homosexual and who are now heterosexual Christians and ask them some of the details of how they did it. At present I only know bits and pieces of how they did it. I know it is far easier for women to change their sexual orientation than it is for men as well as a few of the methods, but I certainly do not feel like I have anywhere close to the full story on how they did it.

EDIT: As a reminder I am only explaining my position as opposed trying to change your position or you trying to change mine. I hope I answered your question on how I would handle this hypothetical situation. I do have a close relative who I love that is very homosexual. I want to talk with him about it, but I do not feel it would be right to do so at present since he has not come out and admitted this about himself to the rest of the family yet.

Hello James,

First some remarks in order to put things in the right perspective.
Homosexuality is not a topic I'm particularly interested in. I just used it in order to find out to what extent strict biblical beliefs may restrain what may be the strongest human emotion: love.
In my mind, the question I originally asked in The purpose of life (and which is now the start of a new threat) wasn't too much off topic, because it was generated by your answer regarding life's purpose.
Just like you, I'm not interested in getting into a heated debate on the topic. It should not be too difficult too discuss it in a friendly way. But perhaps DD's forum is not the right place to do it. We'll see.

Meanwhile, I appreciate your honesty about the subject, although I don't agree with your views, as you will have guessed.

If you have to have these various things be sins, I prefer the Catholic approach. As long as you confess and repent, it's like AA, you can have relapses. You're not damned if you cannot throw off the yoke completely.

However, with homosexuality there are some fundamental problems. Is it a choice or not? And even if it is, how do we really know that God is against it? I don't believe the Bible is very clear on that or on whether or not it's a choice. The scientific evidence is fairly overwhelming that it's not a choice.

There is a great fear of homosexuality among many for various reasons, mostly fear that you might be one, or be forced to be one, but there are other reasons. It seems likely that these fears are perhaps why so many believe that it's evil. Even if you are not afraid, just convinced that it's evil, perhaps it is this fear in others that has led them to persuade you that it's evil.

I'm not big on the theological implications of this or any topic, though theology often makes for great theater. Fear, on the other hand does concern me, as I see it as a relative evil. Some fear is healthy and keeps us out of trouble. But much is overblown and causes us problems as individuals, as a society, even as the human race. Death, disease, lack of fulfillment of one's potential, at the personal as well as societal and global levels, all can often be traced to fear and only fear. When that happens it's such a tragedy and waste.

I would go along with that your description of the Catholic position too, but I would add that the Christians still has sin that is fought against and will never be fully removed until death. The Christian relies on Christ alone to bear the penalty for sin. No one can redeem himself to God outside of faith in Christ. It is good to get into a right standing with God while there is still time before death comes and all hope is lost.

James,
There is no record of where Jesus explicitly stated that homosexuality is wrong. You might think that he condemned the behavior in Matt. 19:4, where it says:
Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female? For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

But interpreting this passage as a condemnation of homosexuality would imply that anyone who prefers to stay unmarried is a sinner too.

Also notice that at the center of the conflict over slavery in America, not very long ago, were very different interpretations of the Bible. There were people who believed that the many references in the Bible permitting slavery were evidence that slavery was what God wanted / permitted. And there were those who argued that those references were only a reflection of the historical and cultural context in which the Bible was written.

If you are against slavery (as I think you are) despite the passages in the Bible permitting it, then you apparently agree that the Bible should be interpreted in its historical and cultutal context. As a consequence, you should read the passages in the Bible about homosexuality in their historical/cultural context as well.

But, in the end, why would you deduce moral laws from (a literal, absolute interpretation of) the Bible anyway? That only gives lots of problems. You will be forced, then, to admit that the suns of Adam slept with Eve (incest), that it is not sinful to marry your half-sister (Abraham married his half-sister Sarah; incest again!), that it is a legitimate thing for a prophet (Elisha) to curse children who mock him for his bald head (where the effect of the curse was that the children were torn apart by bears), etc.

The Old Testament has a few verses about homosexuality, but there is nothing in the New Testament about it from Jesus.

http://www.christianbiblereference.o...osexuality.htm

I went to Catholic schools from K through 12 and there were several discussions about this between the many priests and all of the kids once we hit high school.

Interesting questions, why are you asking?

I Think there's really only one question in Arie's previous post (the others are variations upon it, building up to it):

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why would you deduce moral laws from (a literal, absolute interpretation of) the Bible anyway?

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And, I think the reason for it is obvious.

In that verse Jesus is saying what marriage is and is not saying that anything else is wrong. In particular he was answering questions about divorce. Just because Jesus did not say it does not mean that God's position on the matter did not exist. He often criticized the religious leaders of that time for failing to understand what we now refer to as the Old Testament.

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"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17.

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'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans 1:26-27)

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old–surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:4-5)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Mark 10:7-9)

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In regards to slavery the Bible does not encourage slavery or necessarily permit it. Rather the passages that deal with slavery recognize it as a product of sin which came about from the Fall (I'm referring to Adam and Eve). The Apostle Paul encourages slaves to seek their freedom whenever possible through legal means. No matter when slavery happens in history it is not something anyone should seek after and should always avoid. Paul in Romans chapter 1 relates the product of sin and even gives mention to homosexuality among his examples back to the Fall. This relates homosexuality (among other sins) as universally evil no matter when it takes place and is not limited to the cultural period that it is referenced.

I am not sure what you mean by literal and absolute translation of the Bible. The historical narrative should be taken as actual history and the Hebrew poetry should be taken figuratively. Anyway, on to incest in the Bible.

Eve was made specifically for Adam. I have a hard time considering that incest. How about the children of Adam and Eve? That makes a bit more sense. Adam and Eve had sons and daughters. Yes, brothers and sisters slept together. This was necessary to populate the earth and in order to fulfill God's command to populate the earth. We have no reason to believe that Eve slept with her sons.

What about Abram and Sarai? They got married before the law was given. This does not mean it was right what they did since the law is written on our hearts.

Elisha's curse upon those children took place when God's kingdom, the nation of Israel, was a theocratic society. The society was also in disarray at the time and so Elisha as God's representative was sent to restore Israel. To insult the representative of God was to insult God himself. We are no longer living in a theocratic society today, so such a judgment would not be appropriate.

When reading the Bible I would recommend starting at the beginning and reading on to the end. I find it makes more sense that way even though other Christians advise reading this passage before that one, etc. Just my suggestion. I hope my suggestions help at least a little.