Soviet-hope

[molendijk]

Stalin made a very wrong use of the communist ideal. But if you view it as it was intended to be, it is to be preferred to the Western egoistic way (money, money, money). So let's listen to this (http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl70586.swf&video_id=c-Raafdzxns&rel=1&showsearch=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i4.ytimg.com/vi/c-Raafdzxns/hqdefault.jpg&sk=4C5gWgnR4fKAMbOyDhQag2_OA7hfup_aC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=nl).

Arie.

[Snookerman]

NO thank you!

[molendijk]

NO thank you!
I said: 'as it was INTENDED to be'. In all other respects, I agree with your NO.
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Arie

[codeexploiter]

It seems that the concept is good but the execution is always wrong. History says it all.

[Snookerman]

So let's listen to this.

You talk about the intentions of communism and then link to a propaganda video full of lies and deceit.
it is to be preferred to the Western egoistic wayWhy? Did you live in both systems? This is how it always starts, some genius gets the idea that the ideal is good and then it ends with millions and millions of people dead. You would think opening a history book would prove how wrong communism is. So again:

NO thank you!

[molendijk]

You talk about the intentions of communism and then link to a propaganda video full of lies and deceit.Why?
I linked to the film because I like the music. By the way: propaganda is everywhere, in each system. Singing the national hymn before having a political meeting, before starting the day at school etc. is propaganda too.

This is how it always starts, some genius gets the idea that the ideal is good and then it ends with millions and millions of people dead. You would think opening a history book would prove how wrong communism is. So again:
NO thank you!
In itself, communism is not wrong. The concept is even more human than the capitalistic one. In fact, it has much in common with early christianity. But it attracted the wrong people. Here again: I'm against the execution of the idea, not against the idea itself.
(In the same way, I'm not against the concept of christianity, but I DO oppose to its medieval execution (cruisades and killing non-believers)).
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Arie.

[Medyman]

Snookerman, there are huge differences between theory and practice. As an academic doctrine, the communist philosophy is more egalitarian than most. Of course, human nature being what it is (and the propensity of totalitarian regimes to adopt portions of the communist manifesto), it is destined to fail as a form of government.

[Twey]

You would think opening a history book would prove how wrong communism is.Most of the systems people usually cite when attempting to disprove communism are states like the Soviet Union and Maoist China. However, these are in fact not communist: any state with a single leader is entirely anti-communist in its ways — really, closer to dictatorships. Communism has never come to fruition in a large state: elements of capitalism survive, as they have done for centuries, and thereby corrupt the system in the delicate transitional point into one of the monstrosities to which you allude. Communism has been employed successfully in small communities in which everybody is dedicated to preserving it, but the habits of capitalism (greed for wealth, association of wealth with power, that a person's worth is judged by what he or she has rather than what he or she does) are very hard to shake, and experiments in that direction have so far been unsuccessful — although not in quite such a horrific way as seem to think: most countries living under these failed states hardly noticed the difference, and by and large lived perfectly normal (by capitalist standards) lives. I would wager that capitalism has caused many more deaths over the years than the attempts at communism ever did: look at the people in Africa starving while first-world farmers let food rot in their storehouses rather than flood the market, for example. I once heard it quoted that if all that excess were sent to third-world countries, there would be no hunger there. Moreover, the damage that you lay at the feet of communism is not specific to communism at all, but would occur in any forceful revolution; it doesn't immediately render the new system bad, but rather merely illustrates the lengths to which people will attempt to resist major change (and the equal lengths to which the resisted will go to propagate it).

[molendijk]

Snookerman, just for the sake of clarity: a prominent contemporary example of communism is the kibbutz system in Israel; 'kibbutzniks' practice a form of communism.
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Arie.

[molendijk]

Well, I found the same beautiful music in another political setting (http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl73532.swf&video_id=NIwZm1EKIc0&r el=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i3.ytimg.com/vi/NIwZm1EKIc0/hqdefault.jpg&sk=IDaH4AzNEEsi_eR4SvH8xGa2UH25eFRVC& use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=nl). I still DO like the music, which is non-religiously religious (I like paradoxes). Good music is supposed to eliminate prejudice, right? (Like 'West=good, East=bad').
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Arie.

[djr33]

Communism is bad in how it has been implemented and perhaps even bad in its nature (as a system), but not in the ideas behind it. However, when I say bad I would apply the same to implementations of capitalism, at least after an initial time of prosperity.
Greed in either system corrupts, and that's all.

There is no good way to govern, though. It's a paradox: the government will always cause problems, but no government is a problem in itself, and that void will eventually be filled even by an informal system of some sort (or we'll be back to hunting and gathering).

Snookerman, you're too quick to judge it, and you should be aware that ideas of communism are about things like equality and preserving everyone's lives; but you are right that the song is propagandist-- though perhaps that propaganda is about the ideals-- the song talks about things that should be what communism is about-- that is-- the propaganda is propaganda because it uses the ideals in place of the reality.

[Snookerman]

First of all, the thread is called Soviet hope!! Second, propaganda movie. When I say NO thank you, it's to just that. I can't believe that you can allow such a movie to be posted here. If you want to talk about how you like Marx' society staircase to utopia don't name the thread soviet hope and don't post a socialist propaganda movie, that's just hypocritical and offending to many people.

[Twey]

Communism is bad in how it has been implementedImplemented where? Did you read my earlier post?
First of all, the thread is called Soviet hope!!I do think that the title was ironic.

[djr33]

Yes, Twey, I read your post. I've also heard about those small communities (less than 100 people, or it begins to fall apart) for which a community living situation is beneficial and reasonable for all. But that's not communism in the world political sense, but just the ideals behind it. It's an implementation of it that worked to a great degree, so perhaps that's perfect communism, but in the general usage of the word, I feel like it should have an implied "[imperfect] communism," as that is what it is-- and that isn't necessarily not the case for other systems as well-- capitalism has many problems. Generally, though, I think we agree.


When I say NO thank you, it's to just that. I can't believe that you can allow such a movie to be posted here.That's fine, if you don't like it, but that doesn't mean you can't learn from it. That it offends you is bad and it may not be a positive video in itself, but watching it may be a good thing-- it lets you see what's wrong with such presentations.
I refer again to that the propaganda is idealistic and not realistic. If everything in that video were true as it is said and nothing bad were from it, then I would suggest that it IS Soviet hope, and thus the video demonstrates exactly what failed in the Soviet system-- it is how it should have been and a lie (and thus propaganda) because it isn't reality-- it's idealism.
These ideals may be good, or even perfect, regardless of any failure in the actual system.

[molendijk]

First of all, the thread is called Soviet hope!!
That hope has been proven to be not justifiable afterwards, but there were reasons to be hopeful in the beginning. I used the term in an ironic way.

Second, propaganda movie.
I've seen many Western propaganda movies too.

I can't believe that you can allow such a movie to be posted here.
I didn't want to offend anyone. But I'm surprised you want to go the Soviet-repressive way.

...don't post a socialist propaganda movie, that's just hypocritical and offending to many people.
I was talking about hope that failed. Now you're accusing me of hypocrisy. I find this offending, but I won't complain to anyone about it, because I think you have the right to say what you think. Do I have that right too?
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Arie.

[Snookerman]

Freedom of speed goes both ways, just because someone has the right to say their opinion doesn't mean others can't complain. If you were offended by what I said, by all means, complain, speak your mind. I just want to make some things clear, I am against socialism, I don't believe in Marx' law of society and I don't agree with all this criticism of the "western way". "Egalitarianism is good" is not an axiom, it's just an opinion.

[djr33]

I can't believe that you can allow such a movie to be posted here.That's not an opinion, that's a condemnation of free speech. You can dislike it and you can say so, but if you are speaking freely about how others shouldn't speak freely, that's hypocritical.

Anyway, this is getting rather pointless. Aside from a general understanding that the communist ideals are interesting potentially (which we have either all accepted or agreed to disagree about), there's not much going on except an argument about both. If you don't like it, ignore it. I'm not trying specifically to shut you out, snookerman, but I'm not sure why it bothers you that an opinion has been posted-- I mean, if it does bother you, why not just not look at it.

[Snookerman]

I can't believe that you can allow such a movie to be posted here.
By here I mean this discussion meant to show the positive sides of communism. I think it's rather self-destructive to speak about the intentions of communism and then end with a socialist propaganda movie. Communism and its ideals is not the same thing as socialism and its results.

why not just not look at it
Because isolationism leads nowhere. If the US would have continued to not look at "it" in WWII, who knows what would have happened. If someone would post a nazi propaganda movie here would you look away?

[jscheuer1]

As long as people are flawed, no system of government will be perfect.

Having flaws is part of the definition of being human, so there you go.

We do try though, nothing wrong in that, but there have been all kinds of tragedies and atrocities in every type of system.

[djr33]

You're saying don't show the film, and also don't isolate yourself; that's contradictory and in the end it's simple-- if you don't like it, don't look at it, or deal with looking at it. You can not look at it here or not look at it in other places, but just 'cause you don't like it doesn't mean someone else can't post if. If you particularly want to you could post a clip of your political views or quandaries-- such as a similar film on the ideals of capitalism-- however, at this point it's getting away from discussion and just a discussion of your objection to the discussion, so I'd say the conversation has moved on. If you still want to go on with it, I'm not going to lock it yet, but I really don't see where you're going with it.

[molendijk]

Well folks, what do you think of the bloody Marseillaise-text (http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl74240.swf&video_id=4K1q9Ntcr5g&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i1.ytimg.com/vi/4K1q9Ntcr5g/hqdefault.jpg&sk=lxmStjFuVDwDImC48IZm7hc38Hx1mYgGC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=nl) as compared to the one under discussion?
By the way, I think this (http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl73532.swf&video_id=oQgulL_30n8&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i4.ytimg.com/vi/oQgulL_30n8/hqdefault.jpg&sk=IDaH4AzNEEsi_eR4SvH8xGa2UH25eFRVC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=nl) is much more friendly. It's also about hope: beat the water!
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Arie.

[Twey]

But that's not communism in the world political sense, but just the ideals behind it. It's an implementation of it that worked to a great degree, so perhaps that's perfect communism, but in the general usage of the word, I feel like it should have an implied "[imperfect] communism," as that is what it isWell, that's the thing. The mutilated economic monsters that have arisen out of assorted communist revolutions are not 'imperfect communism' at all — they're about as far from actual communism as one can get (dictatorships). The system in, say, Australia, is actually more 'communist' than that in China.


Well folks, what do you think of the bloody Marseillaise-text as compared to the one under discussion?That ennemis enemy expiring!

I find such anthems amusing, for some reason. I probably shouldn't. :)

[molendijk]

I find such anthems amusing, for some reason. I probably shouldn't. :)
Yes you should. That proves you have a good sense of humour. You most probably wouldn't start a war.
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Arie.

[Snookerman]

Well folks, what do you think of the bloody Marseillaise-text (http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl74240.swf&video_id=4K1q9Ntcr5g&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i1.ytimg.com/vi/4K1q9Ntcr5g/hqdefault.jpg&sk=lxmStjFuVDwDImC48IZm7hc38Hx1mYgGC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=nl) as compared to the one under discussion?
One of my favourite national anthems.

You're saying don't show the film, and also don't isolate yourself; that's contradictory
Nope, I'm saying that if you want to say that communism is good, a socialist film won't help your case. I think I've made that clear. I agree that this discussion is going nowhere and I don't intend to go on with it.

[molendijk]

I'm saying that if you want to say that communism is good, a socialist film won't help your case. I think I've made that clear. I agree that this discussion is going nowhere and I don't intend to go on with it.
You misunderstood the meaning of my post. I wanted to show the tragedy of something that was supposed to be good in the beginning, but ended in horror, because of human failure. The propaganda-aspect was ment to give it a black-humouristic flavor.
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Arie.

[molendijk]

One of my favourite national anthems.
But this one (http://www.youtube.com/v/0Q6UFEjZBQk&hl=nl&fs=1) is even more beautiful, without patriotism.
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Arie.

[Snookerman]

:D It's hard not to be patriotic, my mum is part hungarian :)