freelance

[stevedc]

this has nothing to do with code, so I assume I'm in the right place. So I just finishing up my BFA In Digital Media Design at the Corcoran College or Art and Design in D.C. I'm not ready to go full time with a company and have actually turned two jobs down. I'm going to give freelancing a try just for the summer since I already have several clients that will pay the bills. However, getting curious I've started to look at some popular job boards such as oDesk and Elance. There is a nice list of them on Dustin Brewers blog here (http://dustinbrewer.com/top-10-job-boards-for-freelance-web-designers/). After browsing through both sites for a few hours I've realized how much outsourcing is really happening. A handful of these jobs are being taken from India, Russia, Ukraine etc. etc. Clearly this is nothing new, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or other boards that aren't being dominated by "CSS/HTML designer $10/h - dubai - IN" or "Flash web design - $10/h". I'm not trying to be offensive in any way as I have no real developed thoughts on this yet, but just wondering...

~ Regards
Steve

[Medyman]

Hey Steve,

I hear ya man. I've done (and still do) a fair amount of freelancing. The board I've used most often is getafreelancer.com. But it's no different than the others. There are thousands of developers who are just trying to make some money on the side so they charge insanely low amounts. Honestly, I think all of these boards are a very big reason why most people (especially small-time clients or first-time website owners) have little to no respect for our profession.

I'll admit that I've done my fair share of $400 - $500 websites when I first started. But once I had a decent portfolio, I quickly raised my prices. Nowadays, I still use some freelancer job boards, but only file bids on projects with a respectable budget. If the budget range is right for that job, that usually signifies that the client is in-tune with the web design/development world and understands the real costs and is more likely to value quality over savings.

That probably doesn't help you much, does it? In any case, I haven't come across any job board that didn't have those kinds of developers swarming around. The most important thing though, is not to get caught in the caught of doing speculative work. It's the single worst thing that you an do as a freelancer IMO.

[rangana]

For real. $400-$500, that's huge. BTW, what is the usual rate per hour for a web designer? I just recently exposed myself in this field last Jan.

[Medyman]

For real. $400-$500, that's huge. BTW, what is the usual rate per hour for a web designer? I just recently exposed myself in this field last Jan.

I'd hardly say it's huge. But I guess it's relative to everyone's income. From the perspective of running a web firm with 6 employees, $500 means I'm in the negative (by a lot).

We don't really do hourly rates for building websites, because I think that hinders quality. If a client is only willing to pay for 4 hours but it really would take you 6 to do an amazing job, you're forced to cut corners. I wouldn't be comfortable with offering sub-standard work, so we generally do flat rates -- $xxx for the entire thing.

But if a client needs some maintenance, a few things changed here and there than we do do hourly rates. Our hourly rate is $100/hr. As far as I'm aware, that's about the industry average.

[rangana]

That's a lot than my expected answer of an hourly rate. Really no idea, whatever the first bid, then I accept. :p

Poor standard should I say, but I strive for quality, anyways, I'm enjoying (as of now).

[Medyman]

Poor standard should I say, but I strive for quality, anyways, I'm enjoying (as of now).

That's good. But you should realize the value of the services you're providing. You're probably undervaluing yourself. Right now it might seem like money in you r pocket, but later on you'll realize that you've locked yourself in the hole.

Any skilled freelancer won't have to go on those boards for long. If you do a good job, chances are that other projects will be referred to you from your past clients. Now, if you're charging that past client a low price, the person they refer will want the same thing. And so on and so on... So before you know it, you're doing a whole lot of work and not being paid enough for your troubles.

If you have a decent portfolio built up, start bidding a little higher. People will pay for quality, trust me!

[rangana]

If you have a decent portfolio build up, start bidding a little higher. People will pay for quality, trust me!

I am trusting you. Yoda must have been a good hangout ain't it :D

[chechu]

For real. $400-$500, that's huge.
I am honestly surprised of this amazingly low price.
In Belgium, the country I mostly work with, a decent website will cost you about 1500 euros (1100 US dollars ?) for ten pages, no email form, no special scripts or effects. Why do you think I always come up with these weird questions on this forum ? Because asking a pro here costs you too much.
Example: this script

<?php
if ($_POST["action"] == "send"){
if ($_POST[naam] != " je naam" and $_POST[naam] != "" and $_POST[email] != " je e-mail adres" and $_POST[email] != "" and $_POST[bericht] != "") {
mail ("info@site.com", "via site",
"
Naam: ".$_POST['naam']."
E-mail: ".$_POST['email']."
Bericht: ".$_POST['bericht']."
",
"From: ".$_POST['naam']." <".$_POST['email'].">");
$subject = "je bericht aan Ceci Casariego";
$msg = "
Dit is een automatisch verzonden mail. Gelieve niet te antwoorden.
Beste $_POST[naam],
Bedankt voor je bericht aan Ceci.
Ze zal je zo snel mogelijk beantwoorden
Dit was je bericht:
$_POST[bericht]
";
mail($_POST[email], $subject, $msg);
echo 'Bedankt.<br><br>Je bericht is verzonden, <br>en je zult een bevestiging ontvangen. <br><br>&nbsp;<br><br>';
}
else{
echo 'Gelieve alle velden in te vullen<br><br>Je naam, email adres en bericht<br> zijn verplichte velden.<br><br><a href="contactNL.html"><font color="#565656;">[graag opnieuw]</font></a><br><br>&nbsp;<br>';
}
}
?>
Would cost about 250 euros. Only that !!

Don't let me say now that you should all move to Belgium ;)

[Medyman]

I am honestly surprised of this amazingly low price.

I agree...it was an amazingly low price. But at the time, I was a college student. It was a side-thing. I needed to build a portfolio. Most of my clients were fellow college students. I didn't know any better :p

That's no way close to what I charge now, though.

[chechu]

You charge more than 1500 euros for ten pages, no flash, no scripts, no whatever special ?
If so, I looooooove this forum ;)

[djr33]

1500 Euros is about $2300, not $1100.
Much more.
(Remember, the dollar is worth less than the Euro now... a lot less.)

[chechu]

Yep, indeed.
Just to see if someone would notice ;)

J'étudie un peu français.
"J'étudie un peu le français" or "J'étudie un peu de français"

[stevedc]

So what advice would one have for a student who can't possibly work for 15/h living in Washington D.C. who would prefer to freelance for six months - year before signing on with a company..? Move to India where the dollar is strong :). I guess I just wondering what job boards are out there that aren't outsourcing a large part of their work to the east. However, freelanceswitch seems to be interesting. I actually ordered the book "how to be a rockstar freelancer" - perhaps I'll find some info in their as well.

~ Regards
Steve

[rangana]

I am honestly surprised of this amazingly low price.
In Belgium, the country I mostly work with, a decent website will cost you about 1500 euros (1100 US dollars ?) for ten pages, no email form, no special scripts or effects. Why do you think I always come up with these weird questions on this forum ? Because asking a pro here costs you too much.
Example: this script

<?php
if ($_POST["action"] == "send"){
if ($_POST[naam] != " je naam" and $_POST[naam] != "" and $_POST[email] != " je e-mail adres" and $_POST[email] != "" and $_POST[bericht] != "") {
mail ("info@site.com", "via site",
"
Naam: ".$_POST['naam']."
E-mail: ".$_POST['email']."
Bericht: ".$_POST['bericht']."
",
"From: ".$_POST['naam']." <".$_POST['email'].">");
$subject = "je bericht aan Ceci Casariego";
$msg = "
Dit is een automatisch verzonden mail. Gelieve niet te antwoorden.
Beste $_POST[naam],
Bedankt voor je bericht aan Ceci.
Ze zal je zo snel mogelijk beantwoorden
Dit was je bericht:
$_POST[bericht]
";
mail($_POST[email], $subject, $msg);
echo 'Bedankt.<br><br>Je bericht is verzonden, <br>en je zult een bevestiging ontvangen. <br><br>&nbsp;<br><br>';
}
else{
echo 'Gelieve alle velden in te vullen<br><br>Je naam, email adres en bericht<br> zijn verplichte velden.<br><br><a href="contactNL.html"><font color="#565656;">[graag opnieuw]</font></a><br><br>&nbsp;<br>';
}
}
?>
Would cost about 250 euros. Only that !!

Don't let me say now that you should all move to Belgium ;)

Really? :eek:.

How much does it cost being in Belgium. Most of my clients are from Canada, and the highest I've recieved yet was $30 candian dollar, and this was no easy task. It consist of:
1. Creating a page with the attached data.
2. Make sitemap for other page (html and xml).
3. Code another page using PHP includes and add noframes. (PHP and HTML)
4. Get blog feed from this site, and show it on the other site. (php)
5. Edit another page to have like this (PHP)
6. Add the pages to google,yahoo and alexa.

Now, was I being so kind. Or a perfect example of undervaluing as Medyman said. :p

[djr33]

Web design is a lot like selling antiques: you might have an old chair worth $30,000, but it also may be very hard to find someone actually willing to pay that. Thus, that "value" is really just a label-- it's worth whatever you can sell it for.
Web design is even more like this, and it's something that fluctuates with supply and demand. You need to find customers and impress them with the price and/or services, so they demand your supply.
The difference, of course, is that web design is usually in high demand, and you need to know where to look. Personal sites aren't great for money, because the person wanting it just doesn't have that much to spend, right? So the bigger money is on projects with a bigger budget.
Thus, if you want more money, find a client with more money. Telling someone who doesn't have more to spend that you're more expensive won't get anywhere-- so you'll have to decide: is it worth settling for a lower price, or should you just find someone who can spend more?

[rangana]

Oh well. That makes much sense Daniel.

[chechu]

Problem in Belgium is that the internethype didn't start at the same time as other countries, f.ex. The Netherlands (neighbours). That means that the first companies that started building sites, were rare, thus highly expensive. Now you have so many freelancers and even academies for it, that competition is huge, so you'd expect prices should drop. But they don't, because it still is an upcoming branche. The Netherlands have started this business earlier, so prices have dropped tremendously.

The true market for webdesign in Europe (I never worked in that business in the US) is now the latest joining countries to the EU (former East-Block), and the Mediteranian countries (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy). These countries understand more and more that they need to redirect their focus to the whole of Europe, and not only their neighbourhood, if they wish to stay in competition.
I see some webdeveloppers putting their site online in the language and extension of these new countries, hiring one native speaking person to translate the wishes and content, and they keep on working from their office in Brussels (capital of Europe, Belgium).

It is such a weird world, but so fascinating. As there are so many nationalities in this forum, I'd really like to know how much one can charge for the script above.

[hyk]

chechu: Erm i not that good at programming but the script you posted looked sure looks easy to understand. Now here a question, why do the rates in belguim so much higher? Well for the US i can understand since in this forum we had so much experts living in the US:D

Medyman: I sure glad you never charge me a single cent when I ask you for help:p

Well, i think $400- $500 is an okie rate depending on the content being done& hours you spend doing it. I think in my country is $25-50 per hour( sorrie i not
too sure about it.) I know in my country jobs like data entry can get SGD$10++ per hour which is about US$13.60 right?


How much does it cost being in Belgium. Most of my clients are from Canada, and the highest I've recieved yet was $30 candian dollar, and this was no easy task. It consist of:
1. Creating a page with the attached data.
2. Make sitemap for other page (html and xml).
3. Code another page using PHP includes and add noframes. (PHP and HTML)
4. Get blog feed from this site, and show it on the other site. (php)
5. Edit another page to have like this (PHP)
6. Add the pages to google,yahoo and alexa.

rangana, you being ripped off if you asked me

[rangana]

I thought of it too. :o
Well, he's giving me another job, and from this time on, I know my rate, but as Daniel said,
I hope he'll consider my service worthy like buying an antique :rolleyes:

[Medyman]

Or a perfect example of undervaluing as Medyman said. :p

:D
Quite a perfect example.

Freelancing is an art, really. Everyone takes their undervalued projects at the beginning. It's all a learning process. But as your skills increase, your business mind increases, you'll realize what's the best way for you to operate.

You should determine a fair price and stick to it. If someone isn't willing to pay, pass on that client. There will be others.

[chechu]

Well yes. For some clients in Belgium I worked with a Turkish person living in Estonia, and an Argentinian living in Spain.

Outsourcing is the way to keep prices low. Therefore IT moved to Bangalore for a reason (allthough the wages are increasing, so they are losing their advantage bit by bit).