Dreamweaver or Visual Web Developer?

[afe]

Which one is better Dreamweaver or Visual Web Developer?

[Rockonmetal]

Personally i like dreamweaver because its made by adobe and even though i don't own it... it makes creating pages simple and easy... some times its a pain in the butt but its a really nice program easy to use... Plus it has coding/visual features...

Take a 30 day test drive for both...

Also tell us what your gonna be doing...
like... do you have coding experience... What type of website your going to be making... stuff like that so we can help you a little more...

[afe]

I have both of them, and I am making a sport site, http://www.athletes4excellence.com

[Twey]

Don't use either. WYSIWYG web editors are flawed both inherently and in implementation.

[djr33]

Dreamweaver. There have been a number of threads recently about Visual Web Designer, each with some problem with adding a script or styling.

Dreamweaver is, despite what Twey says, a useful tool. HOWEVER, it is only a tool. You are not making a design, nor a "dreamweaver file". You are making CODE, and only code. Dreamweaver generates code, and often there are errors or unusual practices.

If you do use a WYSIWYG (preview based) editor, there WILL be problems, and you must be able to fix them. For this reason, don't become reliant on it to handle all of the html.

Here are my tips:
1. Always work in split view, code and preview (or just code). This will teach you what happens when you add elements and make sure you have an eye on what's going on, not just hoping for the best and letting DW mess up the page in the end.
2. Be familiar with the code. It's much faster to click a button for a table. But still know what <table> and similar code means, and how to use it.
3. Use the code view for colored code-- it will help you see the code visually. That's the best part of dreamweaver, though it's also available in simpler applications like Notepad++.
4. Take advantage (though also be a bit wary) of it's FTP functions. This makes things a lot faster. Open a file, edit, save, and no need to upload to test.
5. Don't rely on DW's preview. It might be wrong. Just like any other render engine in a browser, it will vary some. Test in Internet Explorer, Firefox, etc. DW is just a preview, not a defining factor.
6. Most importantly, never think that DW is writing your page for you. At any time you can go in and change/add/delete parts of the source code as you want, exactly as you want.

[BLiZZaRD]

Don't use either. WYSIWYG web editors are flawed both inherently and in implementation.

I agree. If you can't do it in notepad or notepad++ you shouldn't be doing it.

[djr33]

That's like saying if you want to talk to someone in Icelandic, you can't use a translator. You must learn the language.

Using the translator is the only way to start with actual communication, but using the translator makes the person lazy. The trick is to balance it.

[Twey]

That's like saying if you want to talk to someone in Icelandic, you can't use a translator. You must learn the language.Are we talking machine or human translation here? It would be difficult for two people with no understanding of each other's languages to communicate via a machine translator. If you're talking a human translator, then by all means hire someone to do the page for you, but watch out: the market standard is pretty low.

[BLiZZaRD]

Thats what this site is here for, isn't it? :p

[djr33]

I was talking about a machine translator. Certainly not ideal, but it's a good way to TRY to get something done, if you have no other means. Then again, not a great metaphor anyway, because someone who knows what they are doing can use DW effectively.

[BLiZZaRD]

Not picking a fight Daniel, I respect you and what you do.. but...

if you know what you're doing, do you really need DW?

And if you don't know what you're doing, why start off with bad habits?

[FordCorsair]

Because of DD forums and all the help I got in the past, I progressed from Dreamweaver/GoLive to notepad and now Notepad++. I have stuck to a well tried formula/template initially created by a forum contributor and have based all my sites on that. However, i must still be doing something wrong, I've still to get W3C accreditation on my personal site!

Websites/HTML are a subsidary to my main line of work.

[djr33]

if you know what you're doing, do you really need DW?No. Not at all. I've used notepad if I must.

As an experienced coder, there are still at least 4 big advantages to using such a program:
1. I can organize a site and/or connect to my FTP server and operate directly from that.
2. Code highlighting is immensely helpful, especially with PHP. Though DW doesn't write any PHP for me, I much prefer using DW for that because it's kinder on the eyes.
3. For the same reason, it's autocomplete is great. Type $_S and it finishes it for me. Hit enter, and I've got $_SESSION['. Now, that is just a basic convenience, one I could live without, but it's help with functions is not replaceable. If I'm not working in DW, I always have php.net documentation open to check function name spelling and the order of arguments-- DW fixes both of these, even for obscure functions. It pops up while typing a function name a small message like thisfunc(length int, name str, values array), which is so convenient. Occasionally this gets annoying with functions I know well, but it's a huge help for those I don't.
This also helps find files relative to my webpage. Rather than typing a full path, I can just browse to it. Though, I don't use that option very much.
4. It's preview based. Rather than saving the file, switching to my browser, refreshing the page, etc., I can just click into the preview window. Sure, this isn't always accurate, but it's very nice if I need to check a color, for example. Visual elements are also helped, like image maps. Those users who work almost entirely in Notepad or Notepad++ will have to run another program entirely to pick colors (or just guess, which can work if you have a lot of experience, though hex values are far from intuitive) or to make an image map. In DW, I just click into the preview mode, click a button, and done!


And if you don't know what you're doing, why start off with bad habits?The best process of learning I have found is trial and error.
This is the best way my translation metaphor works in relation to code as well.

You don't know a word, so you use a translator to help you. Now, that's just fine-- you didn't know it, and you needed help. Do you remember it later? If not, it's a crutch, not actually helping you learn. If you do, then great. It works fine. And, more importantly, do you find a way to use the word BETTER than the translator? Machine translators (like WYSIWYG editors) are full of flaws. But once you see that "juego" means I play, you realize that "juegas" means you play [Spanish]. So, same with WYSIWYG editors-- you make a table, and even if the code is bad, you realize from that how a table works, at least generally.
Then, you MUST find out the best way, but at least you can get an idea.
Plus, WYSIWYG editors aren't that bad. The code they make is generally ok, if simple. But it gets completely screwed up when inexperienced users try to do complex things. This is when they should be operating in the code view.

It's not dreamweaver's fault that some user presses the div button 12 times, and ends up with 12 layers of divs. Sure, it's the fault of using it that he didn't realize that, but if he just keeps an eye on the code, that won't be an issue.

[BLiZZaRD]

Everyone has their thing, and each is a bit different. I never found DW user friendly. I tried it, I can't make myself like it. I get syntax, function help and all of what you mentioned above (except color checking) in notepad++, plus I get the ability to swap languages, spell check, and a host of other intuitive designs from add-ons. Yes I know DW has add ons as well.

I prefer to use Filezilla as my FTP client, and through that I can choose which program to use to view/edit my pages, even DW if I wanted.

I just prefer to write my code, upload it and if I have errors I know it's something I did. With DW, you have to double check most of the time incase it was something DW did that you didn't realize.

Now I will admit that DW CS3 is a LOT better than the past versions, and as such it is the only one I haven't uninstalled after upgrading Macromedia Suite (Adobe, whatever)

To me though, from a new coder's POV, using DW is a lot like image slicing, and that should be a no-no as well.

[djr33]

I never found DW user friendly. I tried it, I can't make myself like it. Fair enough. It isn't very intuitive. After taking a web design class in high school and using it in there, I know it well, and that's especially true after helping others in the class fix strange errors.

This doesn't mean that DW isn't full of it's share of bugs. The convenience of the FTP option is great, but also buggy. At times I just do it manually, though I try to use DW if it's happy that day.


To me though, from a new coder's POV, using DW is a lot like image slicing, and that should be a no-no as well.Thanks for a good example.
Exactly, it's just like that. Using image slicing with discretion and in the right places, with some logic beyond just what some app spits out... that's great. 90% of the time, though, sure, it creates a messy page with even messier code. BUT... don't say the tool is wrong just because it's misused.

[BLiZZaRD]

You know, I have thought long and hard about taking some classes at a local college, for things like that... getting a grasp on php, or more indepth in Flash, or JS for example...

But I couldn't make myself do it, at least not yet. With the information on the internet, sites like this one, and good old trial and error, I seem to have done well teaching myself to this point.

Besides I always hear "That class didn't teach me anything" etc..

[djr33]

Nah. Trial and error > Classes.

[Twey]

Not the WYSIWYG aspects, which are what's really under discussion. The only way to use it effectively is to use the WYSIWYG editor/machine translator as a guide only and essentially write the code one's self.

[djr33]

Mostly true. But the live preview and interactive elements like colors and image maps are helpful.
Do you have an alternative that has no WYSIWYG component but does have the other features?

[Twey]

1. I can organize a site and/or connect to my FTP server and operate directly from that.As you can with most modern operating systems, I think.
2. Code highlighting is immensely helpful, especially with PHP. Though DW doesn't write any PHP for me, I much prefer using DW for that because it's kinder on the eyes.Any decent editor will give you this.
3. For the same reason, it's autocomplete is great. Type $_S and it finishes it for me. Hit enter, and I've got $_SESSION['. Now, that is just a basic convenience, one I could live without, but it's help with functions is not replaceable. If I'm not working in DW, I always have php.net documentation open to check function name spelling and the order of arguments-- DW fixes both of these, even for obscure functions. It pops up while typing a function name a small message like thisfunc(length int, name str, values array), which is so convenient. Occasionally this gets annoying with functions I know well, but it's a huge help for those I don't.This is rarer, but exists in other editors too.
4. It's preview based. Rather than saving the file, switching to my browser, refreshing the page, etc., I can just click into the preview window. Sure, this isn't always accurate, but it's very nice if I need to check a color, for example. Visual elements are also helped, like image maps. Those users who work almost entirely in Notepad or Notepad++ will have to run another program entirely to pick colors (or just guess, which can work if you have a lot of experience, though hex values are far from intuitive) or to make an image map. In DW, I just click into the preview mode, click a button, and done!It gives you a preview in IE only, as far as I'm aware. IE is not the browser you want to be basing your design around. It would probably take me longer to move my hands to a mouse and click "preview" than it would to alt-tab then F5. Colour pickers are useful, but as you said, plentiful.

In short, DreamWeaver is very much overkill for what you use it for. If it works for you, great, but it's like recommending Microsoft Word to someone who wants to write a plain text file: it can be done, but it's not really the purpose for which it was intended, and it contains a lot of features that you don't need and that may get in your way. If you're adept at working around them to such an extent that they don't impede your work at all then that's great for you, but it doesn't mean the tool is well-suited for the uses to which you're putting it.

[djr33]

It gives you a preview in IE only, as far as I'm aware.You can set any browser you'd like as the default, and it automatically uses the default of the system, which would likely be FF if you have any sense :p
But, what I meant is the actual preview in DW. Change a color, see a color. No need to save and reload it into the other one.


As for organizing, what I meant is that you can have a number of files open and all from the FTP server if you want, and keep it in a nice contained program. Using notepad, etc., just gives a number of separate windows.

[BLiZZaRD]

notepad++ and text editor have tab options.. one window ;)

[djr33]

Hm. Some valid points. But for some reason, I still like working in DW. Perhaps out of habit.
I haven't been writing much html lately, though. Mostly PHP.

Anyway, here's an important question if you want to sell me on it... what can I use on a mac? Not that this applies to most people.

[BLiZZaRD]

Well, for a Mac, my riddlers use SciTE, Textmate or skEdit.

[Twey]

Yes, I hear very good things of Textmate. I've tried SciTE, and I didn't really like it.

[djr33]

But it's €39.... and I already have DW. And skEdit is also not free.

DW might be bloated, but it works for me, at least.

I suppose someone new might be better off starting with one of those, though.

[BLiZZaRD]

Notepad ++ also has (or is going to have) Mac and Unix support as well...

[Trinithis]

Do you have an alternative that has no WYSIWYG component but does have the other features?

The plain text editor I like to use now is Vim. It has customizable syntax highlighting (via regular expressions) and autocomplete features (+ much more than I can afford to learn now).

Here's a screenshot of what I customized it for JS code:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Trinithis/dynamicDrive/vimSample.png?t=1198102353

Kind of a pain to set up though since I had no idea how to at first.

(Other plain text editors I've tried: Notepad, TED Notepad, Notepad++)