Astral projection possible for the blind?

[BLiZZaRD]

Blind people (considering blind = from birth, have never had a visual image) dream. It is proven they dream, just without the visual images.

Astral Projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection) is a deep sleep out-of-body experience, where the spiritual or essence of the body travels to another plane of existence (unfounded, but widely thought to be possible). This experience is "founded" by lucid and vivid dreams.

So the question is, can blind people experience astral projection (considering that AP is possible)?

[Twey]

Of course. What makes you think that visual dreams are necessary? It's not quite a visual experience (but then neither are dreams, at least in my experience).
(considering that AP is possible)I think you meant "assuming." "Considering" suggests that it's definitely true and thought should be given to such when constructing an argument; "assuming" means that it may or may not be true, but for the sake of the argument we should think as if it is true.

[djr33]

Dreams are a way for the unconscious mind to express lingering thoughts, and represent things through common, but usually extreme or supernatural, means.

Just because someone is asleep, they don't gain the ability to understand seeing things, just like we don't dream in Chinese, and we don't dream about a small town in Russia [accurately].

They might in fact have a dream about sight, but it would likely be as close a representation as possible, with a sort of mixing of the other senses or even approximation-- some blind people can sense light, so they might dream of an amazing blur of light and dark, which, to us, would be nothing more than a boring gradient, but it could, in the understanding supposed in the dream, be a very clear picture of the world.

Dreams are uncertain and unfinished-- only your thoughts exist, and they don't always make sense. If you were to somehow record it, and "turn around", there'd probably be a large gap back there. Dreams are like a movie played by your mind-- they entertain and captivate, but aren't real, and flaws in them are expected. Suddenly, you can fly, and what's more-- you aren't surprised. OR, you are, because it's frequently about the edge of reality, not something outside reality.

So, again, it would be like you having a dream about being able to speak Chinese, or having been to the moon, or, a dream about suffocation if you've never experienced it.

It's impossible to understand sight without actually seeing it, beyond a theoretical understanding of light rays hitting a receptor, etc.


Now, if you want to argue that a vision is given to them by some greater force, or they visit some plane of enlightenment like in Beverly Hills Ninja [ok, sorry for the sarcastic example ;)], I can't stop you there, or claim they don't "see".

[BLiZZaRD]

Yes, sorry Twey I did mean assuming. Sorry for that.

But, Daniel, I have personally dreamt in Chinese. I spoke it, understood it, and apparently in the dream I was Chinese. I KNOW I have heard Chinese before, but I couldn't tell you if you were speaking Chinese, or Japanese, or Korean today. I can't tell them apart. I can only say I am almost positive I have heard it.

Now, the theory of AP is that one of "tale-tale" signs of it is the extreme lucidity and vibrant colors and true to touch 3-d visuals. You can dream you are in China, and then according to AP enthusiasts, when your AP you are IN China and there is an extreme difference in the "Dream"

From the books I have read about it it is 99% visual, and also happens 98+% during sleep (read: dreaming) or in meditation (read:eyes closed). So if blind people do not see in their dreams, can they say they have experienced AP? and if so, did they?

[Twey]

I believe the prominent theory of AP is that the information is not presented through the senses but translated by the mind into sensory data. As such, I see no reason why a blind person could not experience an OOBE; they may experience it through touch, taste, smell and sound, or they may experience it through vision or some other sense (as in the "360° vision" commonly experienced, a new "sense" might be used with which the person has no "real-life" familiarity).

[djr33]

I spoke it, understood it, and apparently in the dream I was Chinese.Sure, but I'm confident you weren't ACTUALLY speaking proper Chinese. It was sounds that you and all of your created co-inhabitants of the subconscious could understand and speak, and it was entirely convincing because you believed it, but it wasn't actually Chinese.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a blind person had a dream where they could see, but the representation of sight wouldn't be real, just as the sensations of flying aren't real, or the physics.

[Twey]

We're not talking about dreams, we're talking about astral projection, with the assumption that it exists.

[jscheuer1]

Assuming AP is a leap. At that point, many things are possible. We are now beyond the realm of ordinary logic. If nothing else, it could be as a blind person's dream is.

[BLiZZaRD]

Assuming AP is a leap.


LOL.. no pun intended I assume hahahahahahaa

[jscheuer1]

As much as I would love to claim credit for that one, sometimes my best puns are unintended. Nice catch!

Anyways, have you ever had an AP experience?

[BLiZZaRD]

Have I ever? Well... I don't think anyone can say for sure... When I was in the Navy we were underway and I had the most REAL dream, I told one of my buddies about it and he said it sounded like AP.

I wasn't sure what it was and he had a book (ironic?) So I took the book and read about AP, and it sounded like what I experienced. Lucid, vivid, could see, taste smell (I got in a fight!) there was more to it than a regualr dream, I can say that.

I would like to think that I have, but I don't know.

[jscheuer1]

I think you can say for sure. You had the experience. What it was exactly, that's what one cannot be certain of. Was it an extremely vivid dream, or waking fantasy? Was it truly the astral body projecting into the ether and traveling about? That's what would be difficult to answer for sure.

If you could go somewhere and communicate with someone else and later check to see if the message got through, that would be more convincing. But even then, there are many ways (without a strict controlled experimental setup) that erroneous positive results could be obtained.

I've had all sorts of experiences myself though, enough to convince me that, at the very least (and as is fairly commonly accepted), human consciousness is much deeper than the ordinary conscious mind.

Whether what goes on there has some kind of empiric significance beyond the individual is in my opinion an open question.

Anecdotal evidence on twins and close relatives knowing what is going on with each other is fairly compelling though.

[djr33]

A friend of mine spoke of his experiences dreaming when we had a discussion on the subject. We brought up the idea of controlling dreams, about about 1/3 of us (including me) have had some ability to know it's a dream and then have some fun with it. But he said that he's gotten to a point where he is aware he's dreaming and then in full control of the world. He said, "I want a tree to be there, so I just made one. It appeared." He's a very interesting person, into martial arts and philosophy, so perhaps that is why his mind worked like that.
The closest I've done to that is realizing that it is in fact a dream and not been worried. I remember one in particular where I was in some large temple like building with thousands of snakes (cobras, to be specific). I was running around trying to hide from them, or get out, then realized it was a dream. So I just ran around stomping on them. Then, I suppose when I would have died from it (though I wasn't concerned), I awoke.

[Trinithis]

Anecdotal evidence on twins and close relatives knowing what is going on with each other is fairly compelling though.

Being an identical twin myself, I would say it is not true. Perhaps its just me, but even in the "real" cases, I say BS. Anyone could have the random "realization", but it's just that when a twin claims to have one, it stands out, making it seem more convincing than it actually is. That's my two bits.

[BLiZZaRD]

Being an identical twin myself,...That's my two bits.

Heh.

So you have spent your whole life with your twin (I don't know your age to know if y'all would still be at home, but assuming you live apart) have never had a feeling that your sibling was about to call and they did, or that you needed to tell them something and they already knew. Nothing between the two of you happend that couldn't be explained except by mere coincidence or "just weird"?

[jscheuer1]

Well, I have had some experiences somewhat along those lines. Here are the basics of perhaps the most dramatic one. I'm not a twin, but I do have a sister (just the two of us kids). At the time she was living in Mexico, I in the US. I had a dream that she was hanging from a noose in the doorway of what used to be her childhood bedroom. Aside from the normally disturbing nature of this dream, I also had a feeling that she was in trouble.

The phone service at that time between our locations wasn't the best, so it was some time before I was able to get through to her. Eventually I was able to get a message to her to call me. When she did, she told me that she had been bitten by a scorpion to which she'd had an allergic reaction that caused her neck to swell and her airways to constrict. She was treated at a local hospital and was OK by the time we talked.

[BLiZZaRD]

I don't do it through dreams, but I too can tell when my sister is in trouble. She is 12 years my junior and we are also the only two children. I live about 3000 miles away frmo her (closest I have been in 8 years) and I always tell my wife, something is wrong with my sister. She makes me call home and I find out she had a serious asthma attack or something along those lines. I don't know what it is, but it is jut a "feeling" I get, like she is calling out to me. Only one time out of countless times can I recall I wasn't right.

Heh. I say countless like my sis is a walking danger zone, but she has severe asthma and is allergic to many many common things (nuts, pets, eggs...) maybe it is because of this that we stay "tuned" to each other? Interesting.

[Rockonmetal]

yeah... i have 2 sisters man... but I don't think i ever sense anything that bad has happened...
I can definitely understand how its possible, i could be a believer if you showed me the results... Mythbusters did a episode on how all life is connected and got some pretty odd results...

[gforceforever]

AP is as "real" as anything else. In the 3-dimensional realm, all humans can experience is energy through the 5 physical senses.

If you believe something, is it not REAL to you? Only God (or your personal version thereof) can be objective. We are all subjective beings, at least in this form.

I have had an OBE, and I continue to ask others of their experiences, almost on a daily basis. I will add that over 80% of people I speak with, regarding this subject, have had some "strange encounter" with something they cannot physically explain.

Humans do not posses, yet, the understanding of Universal Law. We are still grappling with the physical laws (physics) of Earth. How can one say, with any certainty, that personal experiences do not account for something as reality?

I look forward to a response. I am currently in a classwhereby I am learning how to become more aware, which will increase my aptitude for remembering dreams, as well as AP.

Thank you in advance for your consideration. ~G

[Twey]

Only God (or your personal version thereof) can be objective.The parenthesised expression therein denying the statement :) In a subjective-reality theory, which I will admit I favour, nothing is necessarily objective, especially not things outside direct perception such as deities.

[magicyte]

We brought up the idea of controlling dreams, about about 1/3 of us (including me) have had some ability to know it's a dream and then have some fun with it.

Yeah- about that... Since I'm bored and really tired, I'll have some fun right now.

1. Have you ever awoken in the middle of the night, or in the middle of the day (;)) and your legs were in the air and fell onto your bed? Or your hands suddenly jerked upon waking? I have. Those are usually dreams where I'm somehow floating, either on a cloud, in mid-air, or I'm just falling. Well, does anyone know why that happens?

2. (the fun part) One time, I had a really AWESOME dream. Corresponding to your quote, djr33, I could actually control the dream. I knew it was a dream. This is where the fun begins...

Alright, so at the time of this dream, I lived in Dallas, Texas, United States of America. There are a ton of freeways and winding highways there. So, the scenario:

I was standing upon the tall, winding freeway, connected to the ground by large concrete pillars. Several other freeways wove through this one, some below, and some uptop. The sky was very gray that day, not a cloud in sight. The sky was plain gray- no sun, no stars, no planets, nothing but gray. I looked down at the amazing view I had from up there. There were no cars, no civilization, no vegetation, no life, no sound- just concrete everywhere making up freeways in what appeared to be a gray cube, me and the freeways being inside, and darkness being on the outside.
Soon, after observing the terrain, I figured this was a dream, quoting "Ah- sweet! This is a dream! I know it is. It has to be. I'm sleeping right now. Awesome!" Really, I actually said that in my dream. Knowing that you cannot die in dreams, I produced a radical idea- how 'bout I jump off of this thing!? That would be awesome. The freeway was about one hundred fifty feet in the air, so I would have a fairly lasting freefall. My first jump- I carefully climbed onto the ledge, belly facing outward into the unknown, and jumped and ascended about 1 foot while I traveled about 5 feet horizontally. My belly faced down and I descended rapidly, the air flownig through my blond hair refreshing my body. It actually felt like I was falling- really, I felt gravity pulling on me in real life (as it always does, but in my dream I was increasing speed). Weird, I know. I hit the ground, it didn't hurt AT ALL (of course :D), and I got right back up, from which point I automatically appeared at the same spot I was at in the beginning. I accomplished this 20 times or so, and that was when I started walking. I walked upon the concrete lot heading north-east, I could swear, at a fairly brisk pace. In like 2 seconds, I appeared at the end of the cube which had smooth gray walls like the sky- COMPLETELY smooth. There was a doorway about 8 feet tall and, oh, say about 2 1/2 feet wide. It was completely black. Beyond the doorway, blackness engulfed the rest. I went through the doorway and suddenly it looked like a camera backed up, viewing me from the side, and panned itself just right. From this point, the cube became transparent and you could see the freeways I was falling from. Immediately as I got about five feet away from the door, there were many wavy jazz pictures and jazz music playing in the background. There was also some black culture picture outlines. All of the pictures shown were not colorful (when I say that, I mean one color) and were either the color of magenta or light green. The pictures seemed to wave like an animation of the american flag. After about 20 seconds of that, I envisioned the interior of Chuck E. Cheese's and kids walking around with tickets and parents reluctantly taking bites of the sucky pizza, spitting them out later. That lasted for one second, then I went black, and then I woke up. When I woke up, my feet and legs were already in the air and fell to my mattress and sheets, making a loud thump sound. It was a basic jerk of the feet and my whole body (my whole body moved). As for how that happened, I do not know. I still remember this dream, it being the best I have ever had (I bet I could have explained it MUCH better than I really did- I explained it vaguely). For the rest of that day, I was very happy and optimistic, as I usually am :). I even told my mom about the dream and she wasn't too amazed (she didn't experience it, hadn't she). Anyway, how could my legs have jolted, and my body too, upon waking?

[Nile]

Yes, magicye this has happen to me. But since it was a dream I really don't know if my legs fell on my matris which woke me up - or the nightmare type of dream it was.

I was on a still trapeze doing a hip balance into catchers lock(which I do know how to do), but then I fell, woke up. And remembered that I was on the trapeze, but I also remember that I was on a horse falling - weird huh?

I actually did read a chapter in a book that said that blind people dream in a different way. They feel things instead of see things, and sometimes they're dreams can actually be painful.

[Snookerman]

I don't know if it's a dream but sometimes when I'm really tired and I'm lying down trying to stay awake, watching a movie or something, I doze off for just a second and I immediately wake up with a Bang! It just feels like I fell on my bed or that something really heavy fell on me, it really is a big shock. Has anyone ever experienced that?

[Schmoopy]

Well I have it where I'm so tired that my head begins to feel really heavy and I try so hard to stay awake but my eyes just keep shutting and it's more embarassing if someone is speaking to you at the same time since they think you're ignoring them. Then you suddenly come round when they shout at you :p.

Dreams are very strange I find, but the thing that's interesting is that when you dream a chemical is released that's called "DMT" (Dimethyltryptamine). Although this chemical is released in your brain every night or whenever you sleep, it's on a par with heroin and other class A drugs which I find bemusing. There is a guy I've seen on the net who claims to have taken DMT and he said it was like having a dream while conscious, like visiting other realities, very strange but also very interesting.

Joe Rogan - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=grcqs9cDuN8