Style Master, and Dreamweaver

[Sliight]

I'm using Front Page, which I guess is best described as gaming with an e-machines computer that is 7 years old. It doesn't really do a good job, people will make fun of me, and push my face in the mud :)

So, Dreamweaver appears to be what many like to use here... I just can't afford to pop $400 bucks on it.

I would like to know what people's take is on the $60 editor Style Master. I found it on one of the sites that Dynamic sent me to for a tutorial.

Thoughts?

Thanks :)

[Twey]

All WYSIWYG editors are eventually a waste of time and money. The prescribed formula is generally something like:One discovers how to make sites in FrontPage/DreamWeaver/&c. One discovers just how rubbish the pages produced by these tools actually are One starts correcting all the code produced by the tools to make it decent (but will inevitably miss things) One discovers that one is in fact wasting more time correcting the rubbish produced by one's WYSIWYG editor of choice than one would spend creating the page one's self. A wailing and gnashing of teeth follows when one realises that one has wasted $400 on a program that is actually worse than useless.Really, you may as well just write the pages yourself.

[djr33]

If you can afford it, it can be helpful while you are learning so that you can actually get something done, at least temporarily. As you learn, you'll be able to correct it, as Twey said, too.
But, overall, that's just about right.

I'd definitely recommend Dreamweaver over Frontpage. In fact, anything over Frontpage.

I don't know anything about Style Master, though.

[alexjewell]

And, if you're going to spend money and not write the code yourself, you might as well hire a designer.

But, if I were you, learn simple HTML and CSS and make it yourself.

[Sliight]

Well I'm looking at things from the standpoint of learning something brand new, and the dilema of wanting to create something myself.

It's quite daunting to think about creating a webpage without the WYSIWYG type editor because I've never actually tried. Can anyone recommend a free HTML/CSS editor that I can fool around with? I assume that there are programs for this, and people don't just create everything in a word editor and just FTP it to the site.

I will note one thing regarding Style Master that actually makes me think the $60 is worth spending at least from a learning standpoint. The tutorials so far on this site http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/tutorials/index.html are the best I've found. They actually have you create a full page in CSS, which for me hands on learning with a controlled example is HUGE.

I think I agree with Twey's outlook on coding, but I'm no where near that level yet. It's how I look at things when it comes to managers, and reps for the work I do. I know more than they do, I can find out faster on my own, so they are essentially useless and often make mistakes. I do know that I needed them in the beginning though.

So I guess I'll take my licks and learn. I do really appreciate the help provided by everyone here, and I plan to repay it once I know what I'm doing :) Thank you all!

[djr33]

That is the biggest problem. If you are just starting with code it all looks like nonsense and there's no real chance of being productive/efficient.
For that reason, using a WYSIWYG editor is helpful, if for nothing else than a live preview of the code.
I'd say just try some free editors. There are plenty out there.
I've heard good things about notepad+, a text only editor, but it helps with a few things, like code highlighting, I believe.

[Twey]

Can anyone recommend a free HTML/CSS editor that I can fool around with? I assume that there are programs for this, and people don't just create everything in a word editor and just FTP it to the site.Most of us do, yes :p You could have a look at Bluefish (http://bluefish.openoffice.nl/).
That is the biggest problem. If you are just starting with code it all looks like nonsense and there's no real chance of being productive/efficient.And if you use a WYSIWYG editor it'll carry right on looking like nonsense :)
For that reason, using a WYSIWYG editor is helpful, if for nothing else than a live preview of the code.Why? You can get a live preview with a browser (well, OK, so you have to hit F5 every so often).

[djr33]

Having a live preview in the window that updates as you type is, you must admit, more convenient.

And it's also much easier to create a site if you NEED a site with a WYSIWYG editor than with just code for the first time. You may not end up with full control over everything and likely even a few errors, but at least it'll be something. If you don't know what you're doing in a WYSIWYG editor, some logical clicks will end up with something roughly presentable. In a text editor, you'll end up with some plain text, perhaps with some line breaks ;)
It's like touch typing... great for the long run and absolutely better (speaking as someone who fought against learning this for a while), but hunt 'n' peck will still get the job done if you need it before you can learn a better way.


And the best advice for learning code is simple-- just do it.
It doesn't really matter how... if you use tutorials, try to copy the source from other sides (I mean learn the patterns of these sites, not that you just cut and paste [which is illegal]), just start typing stuff, or look at the code (with a cautious acceptance) that the WYSIWYG editor spits out.

[Twey]

Having a live preview in the window that updates as you type is, you must admit, more convenient.I've never tried it, but I can't see how it would make that much of a difference -- especially not $400 worth of it.
And it's also much easier to create a site if you NEED a site with a WYSIWYG editor than with just code for the first time. You may not end up with full control over everything and likely even a few errors, but at least it'll be something.But one would have to go back and quite probably rewrite the whole thing anyway. It seems like a serious waste of time to me, especially when one considers that one is paying in excess of $400 for the privilege.

[riptide]

get dreamweaver because you can learn as you code. it seems people forget about it split screen

[Sliight]

Dreamweaver sounds good but again $400... ouch

I found a link on this site that took me to the Style Master site. I now have a solid core understanding of CSS and actually get how to position stuff now. I've gained a decent understanding using front page and always watching the code, and hand coding changes. I've also started looking at the source of nearly ever page when I see something I like on it. It's quite beneficial to "hunt down" the code for that item...

I just wanted to thank everyone who's offered their help and advice in this thread, and the other threads I created. What everyone has said has helped direct me in my searches to find stuff :)

Now does anyone know how to make someone who is proficient in stick figure creative design get an artistic eye to make something actually look good? :D

Thanks everyone,

[Twey]

Now does anyone know how to make someone who is proficient in stick figure creative design get an artistic eye to make something actually look good?Haha, let me know when you find out, I could do with a dose of that :p

[digitaldiva]

You can always try some of the freeware tools out there. They may help you transition to not needing a bulky editor like Dreamweaver sooner than later, plus they highlight the html to make it easier to read and write. I saw this one and its well reviewed: http://www.snapfiles.com/screenshots/spad.htm
Here's a link to all of SnapFiles HTML publishing tools: http://www.snapfiles.com/Freeware/webpublish/fweditors.html

I would try them out and see if something appeals to you.

Dreamweaver is over-rated and can be good at developing bad habits more than good code.

good luck

[djr33]

Dreamweaver is certainly not the only program that has a split screen. Very nice feature, though.


But one would have to go back and quite probably rewrite the whole thing anyway. It seems like a serious waste of time to me, especially when one considers that one is paying in excess of $400 for the privilege.Yeah, but you'd stop and recode your entire page for the color blind.
As a web designer, you DON'T need to make it completely compatible or correct. Clearly, this is the "wrong" approach, but if you just need a site for your band, soccer team or school class, then there is definite justification for the "just get it done" approach.

If you can spend all the time needed to learn standards, browser exceptions and good coding habits, not to mention memorizing both syntax and usage of terms, then that's great. But many people need a site in a hurry while learning.

As with anything, your first site created will not be your best. But that is the case whether or not you START by using a WYSIWYG editor to get you going.

Using a calculator for math might not teach you the formulas and might give rounded answers, but it will give you an answer.

I started with a geocities site using the build in editor. That thing was terrible. But I did learn, slowly perhaps, and now I can code in notepad if needed (though I like having code highlighting, at least).

However, the $400 for dreamweaver sounds like a waste if, as we've discussed is a good idea, your goal it to move away from it.

[Sliight]

As a side note, I purchased Style Master. It's a very intuitive CSS editor, with a split screen showing your changes real time as well.

I'm sure this isn't the best thing for a seasoned coder, but it's pretty amazing how well it's designed.

[jscheuer1]

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet or not, but FF (free) has these extensions (also free). One of the best FF extensions is the developer extension. One of its features is a live css edit where you can immediately see the results of your edits.