My new site design

[killerchutney]

Yes, i know that i only released the old one about a month ago, but I dont like it now, and i dont want any tables in the code. So here is my latest attempt, nowhere near finished, but you do get a feel for the layout. You can visit it here (http://www.killerchutney.co.uk/new/index2.php)

[Merciless]

I can't explain why i like this site so much, i like the color scheme , and the banner and the font thats on it (don't know the name of the font) what program did you use to make this? and how did you manage it without tables? :)

-ReT

[killerchutney]

Thanks, I used Dreamweaver 8 to make it, and used extensive CSS and around 20 divs. If you want a CSS based layout, try the dynamic drive css library.

[Twey]

Yes, I like the layout too. It doesn't validate, though, and HTML Trans should rightly be dead and buried.

[BLiZZaRD]

Besides your distaste for 4.01 Trans.. what are some valid reasons for switching to strict?

Not trying to start a fight, but the transitional use has still to my bennefit, allowed for most all browsers to properly display my site.

Switching to valid strict means I have to redo 25% of my pages.

Not that I am completely against it, just haven't seen a just reason for it yet.


P.S. KC.. I do like the layout.. Great use of a black site, which is very hard to do these days. Nice Job.

[Twey]

Simply put, it's pointless having it there: browsers still tend to render the page in Quirks mode (or "almost standards" mode in the case of Gecko).

This is because HTML 4.01 Transitional is, as far as I can see, actually closer to HTML 3 than HTML 4, which is understandable given that the original purpose of HTML 4 Trans was to be a gap-filler between the two, allowing developers to gradually implement HTML 4 features whilst maintaining compatibility with HTML 3.

This means that pages using HTML 4 Transitional are roughly ten years out of date. :) HTML 4 was the up-and-coming thing in 1997, when I started web design. This was the period in which developers were intended to use Transitional: HTML 4 wasn't quite ready yet (it was formally released some time in 1998) and although browsers were starting to implement some of it, they weren't there yet, something like XHTML and CSS3 today.

[BLiZZaRD]

So do all browsers fully support strict today?

[Twey]

Yes, all of today's browsers fully support HTML 4.01 Strict, as far as I'm aware.

[killerchutney]

I used HTML 4.0 Transitional mainly because it came up with less errors in validation :) strict came up with loads of errors, such as align is not an attribute. and as far as I know, there is not an align attribute in CSS (according to dreamweaver)

[Twey]

There are no attributes in CSS. There are, however, margin and text-align properties, one or both of which can be used to implement the effect for which you had previously used <center>.
I used HTML 4.0 Transitional mainly because it came up with less errors in validation :)The validator is only a superficial check. HTML Strict adheres to modern standards and good practices a lot better than Trans, explaining why it didn't care about the problems with your site so much.

[BLiZZaRD]

Okay... I tried to switch over to strict. ( I don't have the DOC type correct, so you will need to manually do that in the validator)

Here is the trans version (http://cleverwasteoftime.com/levels/levelone.htm) and what it SHOULD look like.

Here is the strict version (http://cleverwasteoftime.com/levels/levelonea.htm) All valid and pretty, and looking nothing like what I want....

Both versions can be seen and degrade to all modern browsers, yet the trans looks how I want it too, without me having to make 4 billion CSS's . I don't want text-align: center in the main body of the css, then use text-align: left; to over ride that so my content is almost centered on the page I want it centered. If I did that, all my text on my main pages would go center... then I would have to go align them to the left... adding crap just to validate in strict... there is no point.

[Twey]

looking nothing like what I want....Only because you've become too accustomed to old-fashioned presentational markup.
I don't want text-align: center in the main body of the css, then use text-align: left; to over ride that so my content is almost centered on the page I want it centered. If I did that, all my text on my main pages would go center... then I would have to go align them to the left...So, you create a new class and assign that text-align: center; instead. Read this (http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/index.html) for some reasons not to use presentational markup.

[BLiZZaRD]

I will read that page, but I already tried your new class method, and it looked even worse... :( (i.e. the text was perfect but the image was too far left, etc.)

[Twey]

Well... that just means you did something wrong :p Not to insult you, but it's no poor reflection on web standards if someone's unable to design a site because he or she is too used to non-standard markup.

[BLiZZaRD]

No, and I agree.. I have tried to get my pages to Strict, but with the Flash, and objects and trying to keep the source code to a bare minimum (so players have less to weed through for their level hints, etc) it has made it more difficult.

I either have to make 10 differrent CSS pages and use them 2 per page in different orders, and re code every page (well over 9000 now) by hand, or keep them in Trans, which is still used correctly by all major browsers...

So I choose the easy road for now :D

[Twey]

Well, one of the benefits of using a CSS-based design is precisely that one doesn't need to send so much code with every request.
<p class="someclass">Text</p>is a lot less code than
<p><center><b><i><pre>Text</pre></i></b></center></p>... and it's semantic markup and can be changed centrally by modifying the CSS file.

[BLiZZaRD]

Yes I know that, but there are still some things I don't really like about using all CSS...

The pages I linked to for example... to get the second one centered like I wanted it means adding this to the CSS:

body{
text-align: center;
}

.divclass{
text-align: left;
}

With a width and all that in there too, but these 2 lines are the main concern... I have to center ALL text just to negate that in the div to center it properly. Which then means all other pages using that CSS as the design holder and NOT using the <div class="divclass"> will have centered text... another big design no-no, and one I don't want on the main pages.

So what to do?

[Twey]

Do you want the <div> centred, or the body? If the <div>, simply do:
.divclass {
text-align: center;
}If the <body>, you should remember that you can give the <body> a class or ID just like any other element.

[Twey]

Do you want the <div> centred, or the body? If the <div>, simply do:
.divclass {
text-align: center;
}If the <body>, you should remember that you can give the <body> a class or ID just like any other element.

[BLiZZaRD]

I tried that too, and it didn't work. I will have to look at me CSS a little better when I don't have so much going on.

I dunno, perhaps it was a typo, or that FF didn't like me that day :D